Return to the LM

The Dreaded Station 8

 

Heat Flow Reprise

Corrected Transcript and Commentary Copyright © 1996 by Eric M. Jones.
All rights reserved.
Scan and panorama assembly credits in the Image Library.
Video credits in the Video Library.
Except where noted, audio clips by David Shaffer.
Last revised 16 June 2014.

Video Clip   2 min 38 sec ( 0.7 Mb RealVideo or 24 Mb MPG )

MP3 Audio Clip ( 12 min 44 sec )

[TV on. The horizon is at the bottom of the picture.]

147:24:44 Allen: Say again, Dave.

147:24:48 Scott: Are you getting any picture, yet?

147:24:53 Allen: Beautiful picture.

[Fendell tips the camera down, giving us a view toward the northwest of Hill 305.]

147:25:00 Allen: Beautiful picture, Dave. Gorgeous picture. Thank you.

147:25:05 Scott: Oh, fine. Oh, good! That AGC is a great idea. (Pause)

[Jones - "Your statement suggests that the AGC was added to during training. That it wasn't there in the original design."]

[Scott - "No. Procedures. It was already there. But we added the idea of using it to lock up on the Earth. I think what I'm saying here is that I looked at it and it locked in, or it went to max, which says it's a good procedure."]

[Jones - "Eyeball the course alignment and then look at the meter for final alignment."]

147:25:17 Allen: Okay, Dave, we want you to try to get the heat flow drill in at least another section. We think that perhaps there might be an extra section added onto the unit you started yesterday.

147:25:35 Scott: All righty.

[At the end of the first EVA, Dave drilled the first of two heat flow holes but achieved a depth of only 172 cm instead of the planned depth of 294 cm. He finished emplacing the probes in this first hole at 125:16:27, and then started work on the second hole. As was the case with the first hole, the rate of penetration slowed dramatically once the joint between the first two drill-stem sections entered the ground. Drilling was abandoned before Dave could complete the hole because his oxygen supply was getting low. Drilling was terminated at 125:22:33. Post-mission analysis indicated that the fundamental cause of the problems Dave had in drilling the heat flow holes was a faulty drill-stem design. See the summary that follows 124:59:53. A more complete discussion can be found in section 14.4.1 of the Apollo 15 Mission Report.]

147:26:29 Scott: To free the probe, huh?

[Fendell shifts his aim to the left and centers the picture on the drill-stem rack. The 3-meter-pole leaning against the rack is the rammer-jammer used to emplace the heat flow probes.]

147:26:38 Scott: Okay.

147:26:39 Allen: ...may be not to put quite so much pressure on the top of the drill.

147:26:45 Scott: I see; I understand that.

147:26:47 Allen: And...

147:26:48 Scott: We'll give it a go.

147:26:49 Allen: ...you might want to (garbled) before you get started.

[The unintelligible part of Joe's remark sounds like 'check south', which would be a repeat of the reminder that Dave and Joe discussed at the start of the heat flow drilling at 124:53:10.]

Video Clip   3 min 03 sec ( 0.8 Mb RealVideo or 27 Mb MPG )

[Dave threads a drill-stem section on the two that are already in the ground.]

147:27:12 Irwin: Just about finished, Joe.

[Jim is taking photographs in the vicinity of the LM, starting with four photos of the Solar Wind Collector (SWC), AS15-87- 11781 to 11784.]

[The SWC is west of the LM and, from that spot, Jim took a 12-o'clock pan (assembled by Dave Byrne). It consists of frames AS15-87- 11785) to 11804.]

[Frame 11785 is a down-Sun which shows Dave on the Rover near the ALSEP site. This picture was taken sometime after 147:19:33 but before 147:21:30. In frame 11787, readers should note the dark Rover tracks extending all the way to the ALSEP site. Note, as well, that the ground around the ALSEP that Dave and Jim disturbed with their feet is also dark. [Frames 11795, 11796, and 11797 are up-Sun photographs of the LM]

[Frame 87-11801 shows Rover tracks in the direction of Mt. Hadley Delta.]

[Jim then moved to a spot north of the LM and took a 4 o'clock pan. It consists of frames AS15-87- 11805 to 11821. David Harland has assembled the portion showing the LM.]

[In frame 11805, we see that Dave is still on the Rover. Frame 11818 shows the dramatic tilt of the LM. In 11821, Dave is at the front of the Rover positioning the high-gain antenna. Jim took this picture at about 147:24:53.]

[Jim moved to a spot southeast of the LM to take his third LM pan, AS15-87- 11822 to 11840. Readers should note that, for some reason, this is a counter-clockwise pan, a departure from normal practice. David Harland has assembled the portions showing the LM.]

[The down-Sun photo, 11822, shows the minus-Y (south) strut in the foreground. In the distance, Dave is standing at the right side of the Rover. Frame 11826 shows the effects of the higher sun angle on the view toward St. George Crater. Readers may want to compare this frame with SEVA frame AS15-85- 11375. Frame 11835 is centered on Mt. Hadley.]

[Frame 11839, shows the dark grey doors cover the Scientific Equipment (SEQ) Bay on the southeast face of the LM. The fuel cask is in the down position at the left of the doors. Note the wrinkling of the thruster shield. The fuel cask dome and removal tool are next to the minus-Y (south) strut. In the background, Dave has moved away from the Rover and is moving toward the drill site. Frame 11840 is similar.]

[Jim's last two pictures show more detail around the LM. Frame AS15-87-11841 shows the area under the SEQ Bay doors and, as well, the various deployment tapes used to open the doors and extract the ALSEP packages. Before taking 87-11842, Jim moved to a position slightly north of the minus-Z (east) strut to take a picture of the area under the Descent Stage. There isn't as much evidence of sweeping by the Descent Engine exhaust as there is in some other missions, particularly Apollo 12. See, for example, AS12-47-6907. Note the numerous pieces of trash that Dave and Jim have tossed under the descent stage to keep them out from under foot.]

[The Apollo 15 U.S. flag is stowed in the MESA.]

[Dave gets another drill-stem section. He starts to thread it on to the stack but, for some reason, takes it off and puts it back in the rack.]

[Scott, from a 1996 letter - "It may not have started on smoothly."]

147:27:42 Allen: Okay, and unless I miss my guess, your seat's out near the ALSEP now. So that is beautiful.

147:27:50 Irwin: Yeah. (Pause) Why do you want them out near the ALSEP, Joe?

147:28:04 Allen: Jim, I don't...

147:28:06 Irwin: (Garbled)

147:28:07 Allen: ...know how to break this news to you, but we're going to do Station 8 out at the ALSEP site, or nearby. Saving it especially for you.

147:28:13 Irwin: Ohh! (Hearty laugh) Oh, thank you, Joe!

147:28:18 Allen: I knew you'd like it.

147:28:19 Scott: Hey, Joe, before we got out this morning, we figured you guys had a conspiracy against us, having Jim doing Station 8 and me drilling at the same time.

147:28:31 Allen: It may work out that way.

[Scott - "Jim didn't like Station 8, and I didn't like to drill. In relative terms. (Dryly) I mean, we liked everything we did, right? But they were both mechanical chores (and not nearly as much fun as collecting rocks)."]

[Ken Glover prepared a short Real Video clip showing Jim practicing trench digging at the Cape.]

[Fendell pulls back on the zoom and begins to pan clockwise, just as Dave picks up the drill.]

147:28:43 Irwin: Okay. Well, listen...

147:28:44 Allen: ...here. When you finish pulling the flag out of its holder, but not yet deployed, we'll ask you to walk on out to the ALSEP site.

[Fendell is looking up-Sun and the dark Rover tracks extending out from the LM are quite evident in the TV picture Over the back of the Rover, we can see some movement at the LM. This is probably Jim getting the flag out of the MESA. Fendell starts to pan counter-clockwise.]

147:29:09 Allen: Okay, Dave. We are interested in your starting to drill. We've got a lot of power left in the drill, just run it around several times; and don't bear down on it too much. Let's see how free - (correcting himself) or how freely - it moves in the surficial layer there, first of all.

147:29:29 Scott: Okay. (Pause) Joe, I put very little force on it, and it binds up.

147:29:41 Allen: Roger. Any luck by trying to pull it back a bit out of the hole to free it?

147:29:48 Scott: (Chuckles) No, it pulls me right on down with it.

147:29:55 Allen: Okay, Dave, stand by a second.

147:30:00 Scott: Okay.

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147:30:04 Allen: Dave, is it possible at all to clear out the flutes on it by lifting up as you turn the power on?

147:30:13 Scott: I'll try. But it seems to want to pull me with it. (Grunts) There, I got it up.

[Dave comes into view just as he steps up to the drill and pulls it out of the hole perhaps six inches. Fendell stops his pan and zooms in on Dave. Dave lets go of the drill and steps back. During the following conversation, he stands relatively motionless next to the rack, leaning far enough forward that he can manipulate objects on the top of the rack.]

147:30:33 Allen: That's...

147:30:34 Irwin: I may...

147:30:35 Allen: ...exactly right, Jim. We want you now to proceed on out toward Dave, and be back with you in a minute.

147:30:42 Irwin: You want me to carry the staff and the flag out there, huh?

147:30:46 Allen: Negative, negative, leave it near the LM. We'll pick it up a little later when we come back to the Falcon. Just leave it there in a convenient place.

147:30:53 Irwin: Oh. Okay. (Chuckles) I thought I was going to be able do the Station 8 with the flag waving in the background.

147:31:04 Scott: Okay, Joe. Now I've got the drill partially out. Do you want me to try and take the drill off the probe (means the stem)?

147:31:19 Allen: Dave, we wonder if you can just hold it there. Begin it running, and ease it back down into the hole, but without a whole lot of force, down into the hole.

147:31:30 Scott: Okay!

[Dave straightens up, hops to the drill, takes hold of the hand grips, and starts drilling.]

147:31:38 Scott: Okay, I'm not...(Hears Joe) I'm not putting any force on it. I'm letting it do its own forcing.

147:31:47 Allen: Okay, let her run. We've got a lot of power to burn.

[After about six inches of rapid penetration, progress slows dramatically. A good means of gauging progress is to compare the relative locations of the end of the grip in Dave's left hand and the tip of the rammer-jammer in the foreground.]

147:31:56 Irwin: Hey! I want to come out and get some of that! (Long Pause)

[Scott - "I could just feel it vibrating. I don't remember the frequency but, yeah, you know it's turning. It feels good. And you don't have to push on it. Just put your hands on a nice vibrator."]

[Jones - "Was there enough torque that you had to put some lateral pressure on it?"]

[Scott - "I don't think so. I think it was torqueless. Was it?"]

[Jones - "Gene's experience was that he had to hold it pretty firmly because it felt like it was going to turn him. Now, I'll have to check whether that was the heat flow or the deep core."]

[Scott - "You ought to check 'cause, early on, they tried to develop torqueless tools. I was supposed to do one on Gemini VIII. They have torqueless tools, now. I wonder if this was. I don't remember."]

[Gene was drilling a heat flow hole at 119:43:52 when he commented on the significant amount of torque being exerted on his hands. He made no comments about torque while drilling the deep core.]

[During Joe's next transmission, Dave lets the drill run a few seconds and then pulls the drill up again and, this time, turns it counter-clockwise in the hole a fraction of a turn, turns it back to its original orientation and lets it run again.]

[Dave releases his grip and backs away from the drill to stand still and get a few seconds of rest. He stands leaning forward with his arms hanging down in front of him. He hasn't made any progress beyond the six inches of penetration he achieved initially.]

[Jones - "It looks like you're resting your hands, which suggests you were having to grip a little bit."]

[Scott - "Yeah. But, again, the hands are sore inside the suit. That could have been it, too."]

[Dave grabs the drill again, and pulls it up a few inches.]

[Dave lets the drill run. We can see the grips jump under his hands, but there is no progress. After a short while, he backs away from the drill, hops up and down a couple of times - perhaps to relieve some muscle tightness - and resumes his rest position.]

147:33:26 Allen: And, Dave, take a breather there.

147:33:30 Scott: Yeah; (chuckling) it's tightening up again, Joe, and I'm not putting any force on it all. It pulls itself down in; and then it starts to bind up.

147:33:45 Allen: Roger. Copy.

147:33:49 Irwin: Dave, I hope we get a chance to pick that rock up before we go back.

147:33:52 Scott: Which one?

147:33:54 Irwin: Over here. That black glassy one.

147:33:56 Scott: Oh, is it a nice one?

147:33:58 Irwin: Yeah.

147:33:59 LM Crew: (Garbled)

147:34:00 Irwin: Sitting right on the surface.

147:34:06 Allen: Dave...

147:34:06 Irwin: (Garbled)

147:34:09 Scott: Yeah.

147:34:07 Allen: ...as you can tell, that drill is going down. We're going to ask for about 2 more minutes and call it quits, probably. But just take a breather there.

147:34:13 Scott: Oh, no. I just don't want to break it. (Long Pause)

[Dave's tone of voice is quite normal and cheerful, an indication that frustration has not yet gotten the better of him. During his last transmission, he waved his arms back to loosen the muscles and then hopped up to the drill.]

147:34:39 Allen: Roger. (Long Pause)

[Dave leans on the drill and, this time makes some noticeable progress. After a few inches of penetration, he moves the drill up and down, slightly, a couple of times. At first, progress remains slow but, then, just a few seconds before Dave's next transmission, the drill shakes in Dave's hands and the penetration rate increases dramatically. He gets the drill stems in another 6 inches or so in about ten seconds.]

[Jones - "If you watch the drill carefully here, it does look like it's jumping on you."]

[Scott - "Yeah, it does. When it binds up on something, it's twisting in my hands."]

[We then talked about the fact that Dave was putting some weight on the drill.]

[Scott - "You've got to remember this is one-sixth g; and I remember, after we got back, people saying 'Boy, you were really pushing hard.' Can't push hard. Haven't got much to push hard with, because of the light weight, not compared with what the visual image would convey to the viewer because of their association with 1 g."]

[Jones - "The most you could put on it, by taking your weight off your feet, is about 60 pounds."]

[Scott - "Yeah, and people get fooled by this visual image if they don't transport themselves to the one-sixth-g environment."]

147:35:34 Allen: Roger, Dave. And we're learning things.

[Dave hops back to rest. During his next transmission, he waves his forearms from side to side.]

147:35:48 Allen: Roger. (Joking) I hope we're not going to let the air out (of the Moon).

147:35:56 Scott: (Laughing) Yeah, and me.

[In reality, on one of the occasions when Dave pulled up on the drill, he pulled one of the subsurface stem sections out of the one below it and, in this last stage of drilling, the upper section slid past the lower one. See the discussion at 147:45:53.]

147:36:05 Scott: Yeah.

147:36:06 Irwin: ...my task while you're working there.

147:36:07 Scott: You ought to do that if you're really going to do Station 8.

147:36:08 Allen: That sounds good to us, Jim. And Dave, I think maybe you could put another section on that.

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147:36:15 Scott: Yes, sir, I could. Let's see if I can get the drill off. (Long Pause)

[Dave takes a step forward to get going and then does a single long hop that puts him next to the drill. He blocks the stems with his right foot and turns the drill 360 degrees, watching closely as the stem turns in unison. Readers interested in a discussion of the release mechanism should consult section 14.4.1.2 of the Apollo 15 Mission Report. The heat flow drill-stem re-design for Apollo 16 eliminated the need for this particular release mechanism.]

147:36:35 Allen: Roger.

147:36:36 Scott: Try the old vise. (Pause)

[The vise is on the ground next to the drill stems. Dave takes hold of the left drill handle with his left hand and drops to his knees. He reaches out with his right hand to grabe the vise, which is on the ground on the far side of the drill. he gets back on both knees to get the zise ready for attachment.]

[At 128:58:00, during post-EVA-1debriefing, Joe asked, " Jim, once again back to the Central Station. How accurately was the bubble level when you saw it?" Jim replied, "Oh, it was within, oh, one-eight to one-quarter of the center." Here, Jim is back at the ALSEP for the first time since then is taking the opportunity to check his memory, even though Joe had indicated they were happy with his report.]

147:36:54 Irwin: Okay; because the outer edge of the bubble is at the outer edge of the black mark.

147:37:02 Allen: Okay. Copy. Thank you.

147:37:03 Irwin: Black circular mark.

[Dave has the vise in his right hand and, with a firm grip on the near drill hand with his left hand, reaches forward to attach the vise. Toi extend his reach, he has to raise his left knee slightly off the ground. He gets the wriench attached but, in the process of doing so, his right knee begins to slide under him to his left. Apparently, he had some lateral force on the right knee, and, as it slides, he starts to rotate onto his back. To catch himself, Dave grabs the drill with his right hand and pushed up with his right foot. As he comes up, he gets his right leg under his center of mass and, with his left leg stuck out behind, spins through about ninety degrees. As he brings his left leg down, he makes a few short steps away from the drill and, finally, brings himself to a stop with a two-footed hop. The elapsed time from the start of the fall to the end of the final hop was almost six seconds and this episode is a dramatic illustration of the length of time one has to respond in one-sixth gravity.]

[Charlie Duke and Gene Cernan did the drilling on their missions and also had to contend with problems getting a wrench on the drill stems. In getting the wrench on, both used the drill for support but avoided the kind of tumble that Dave had here. In response to a question, Dave said that there wasn't much interchange between crews on issues of this kind. However, Duke and Cernan undoubtedly learned a great deal by watching Dave as he worked.]]

147:37:07 Irwin: Anything else at the ALSEP?

147:37:08 Allen: ...you might go out and start to photograph the flow site, if that looks like a reasonable thing.

147:37:18 Irwin: Okay. Dave didn't get those pictures yesterday, huh?

147:37:21 Allen: Negative, we didn't...

147:37:22 Scott: I didn't get the heat flow, Jim.

147:37:23 Allen: ...get those yet.

147:37:24 Irwin: Okay.

147:37:25 Allen: And...

147:37:26 Irwin: Okay.

147:37:27 Allen: ...have you taken a photo pan from the ALSEP site?

147:37:30 Irwin: I'm on my way (to get the heat flow photos). (Responding to Joe's question about the pan) No.

147:37:33 Allen: Okay....

147:37:34 Irwin: (Garbled)

147:37:34 Allen: ...We'd like that please.

147:37:34 Irwin: I'll probably be running out of film.

147:37:37 Allen: Okay, there's still more mags...

147:37:39 Irwin: I'll have to go back and change mags.

147:37:40 Allen: ...under the seat there, if you want to change them out.

147:37:42 Irwin: Yeah. Okay. (Long Pause)

[Dave blocks the wrench with his calf. He tries to turn the drill and, although there is very little handle motion visible in the TV, the fact that he is exerting considerable force is illustrated by the fact that, when the drill does break loose, the wrench spins through nearly 360 degrees, hits the other side of Dave's leg, pops off the drill stem and lands about a meter away.]

[Scott - "There's a lot of energy in that thing."]

[Scott, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "I finally got the drill off with a wrench, again, and which required about as much force as I could give it. The wrench worked pretty good, though, at that point."]

[The wrench/vise will give Dave trouble when he starts to dissemble the deep core at 164:26:12.]

[Dave puts the drill down and, for several seconds, manipulates the chuck.]

147:38:40 Irwin: Okay, the pan at the ALSEP site's complete. I'll go out and photo the heat flow. (Pause)

147:38:44 Allen: Roger.

[Comm Break]

[Jim's ALSEP pan consists of frames AS15-87- 11843 to 11858. See, also, a black-and-white version of the portion showing Dave's drilling activities.]

[Jim is standing near the Central Station and, in 11843, the Passive Seismometer Experiment (PSE) is at the right. Most of the other objects are discarded dust covers and attachment hardware.]

[Frame 11844 shows the PSE and the Central Station.]

[Frame 11845 was taken across the top of the Central Station toward the magnetometer.]

[In 11847, Dave is leaning to his right and picking up the drill. The Solar Wind Spectrometer is in the foreground. Erik van Meijgaarden has combined AS15-11845 and 11847 as a mini-pan.]

[In frame 11848, The Heat Flow Electronics (HFE) package is just to the left of center.]

[In frame 11849, the eastern heat flow hole is just to the left of center.]

[Frame 11850 is an up-Sun toward the SIDE/CCIG.]

[Frame 11852 shows the Rover, the LM, and the Swann Range.]

[Dave gets another drill stem from the rack and threads it easily into the ones in the ground. He then steps back, leans forward - perhaps to rest - and glances at either his checklist or watch. He then grabs the drill and, in the next minute gets no more than a half meter of penetration. As he releases the drill, the handles jump noticeably. Dave hops back away from the drill for a rest.]

[While Dave drills, Jim walks slowly through the field-of-view past the heat flow electronics package.]

[Jones - "I'd never noticed that Jim was walking flat-footed, here. That's pretty rare. Is he doing it to avoid kicking dust?"]

[Scott - "Yeah, probably."]

[Jones - "So it's a conscious thing."]

[Scott - "Yeah, he was trying to be careful and not kick dust."]

[Jones - "I gather that it was actually harder work to walk flat-footed like that?"]

[Scott - "Well, yes, based on the fact that we naturally would go to the easiest mode of travel. That's why we bounce around. So, if you don't bounce around, you're probably doing something that's harder than bouncing around. (Chuckling) Basically, we're lazy, right? Take the path of least resistance."]

[Jones - "That's how progress gets made. People get lazy."]

[Scott - "This (drilling) is hard work. This is hard, physical work. Bending over and grabbing that stuff and holding on to it and putting the stems in and taking the drill off and all that. That's hard physical work."]

[Jones - "I'll look at the heart rates in here."]

[Scott - "I'll bet I'm running pretty high."]

[Figures 10-4a and 10-4b show Dave's and Jim's heart-rates, respectively. Because of the frequent breaks, Dave's heart rate is actually quite low. Note, also, the very low rates he achieved while driving, for example at about 147 hours. Jim's normal heart rate is higher than Dave's. The significant increase in Jim's heart-rate after 148 hours corresponds to the start of his Station 8 activities at 148:01:48.]

147:40:32 Allen: Okay, Dave, take heart. You've got just one minute of drilling left.

147:40:39 Scott: (Chuckling) Okay, Joe. The only things that give out are the hands. I'll tell you...You know, all this working with the gloves on, after a while...(Long Pause)

[Dave turns to watch Jim taking pictures. He stands still flexing his fingers. After a few seconds, he hops back to the drill.]

147:41:08 Irwin: Okay, Joe, this mag ran out. I'm going to go back and change.

147:41:11 Allen: Okay, Jim. (Pause)

[Jim got two sunstruck photos of the Heat Flow Experiment, AS15-87- 11859 and 11860.]

[Dave pulls the drill up a few inches but makes no further progress in a few seconds of drilling before Joe calls.]

[Dave hops back from the drill.]

147:41:35 Allen: Hand over fist. (Long Pause)

[Scott - "I didn't argue about that at all. Joe said 'that's enough for now' and I said 'Great!' Thank you, Dr. Allen."]

[Dave hops to the drill and turns it briefly, just on the off chance that he won't have to use the wrench. The drill turns freely. In order to get down to the wrench, Dave rests his left hand on the top of the drill which, this time, is about a meter above the surface. He hops and puts his feet a bit behind him and spread apart, and bends his knees, leaning and reaching to his right. Once his right knee is on the ground, he is able to grab the wrench, and rises off his knee. Then, with his right leg still bent and supporting most of his weight and his left hand on the far drill handle for some added stability, he reaches down with his right hand and tries to put the wrench on the drill stem about 6 inches below the chuck and a foot off the ground. After a second or two, he stops the attempt and stands upright, still holding the wrench, possibly because he was unable to get it on the stem or because he thought he wouldn't be able to block the wrench so high on the string. He goes to the rack, probably intending to stow the wrench. He decides against that idea and, instead, puts the wrench in the strap-on pocket on his right thigh and goes back to the drill stem.]

[Scott - "Now that I've seen the video, I can remember doing this. I can remember this was hard work. Bending over and getting that stuff. But one of the reasons I was doing it was the time problem. I was trying to move along briskly, 'cause I knew they were way behind on time 'cause this thing was taking so much time. So, one of the reasons I'm pressing here - and I can remember, now, thinking at the time it was hard work - is that, in the back of my mind, is this clock problem. This thing is burning up all sorts of time we hadn't anticipated."]

[Jones - "And what you really wanted to do was to go out and pick up rocks."]

[Scott - "Yeah. But, in any case, when you get into a problem like this, with this kind of slow down, you have all these other things lined up behind it to do, procedurally, and you know you have a fixed amount of time. So you try to make up whatever you can by doing whatever you can. And that's probably why I'm bending over and going down on my knees and all that sort of stuff and working hard, 'cause I'm trying to make up....Not that it's physically exhausting work, it's just hard work. And it would be easier not to do that hard work. But, in order to make up some time - or to keep from losing any more time - I can remember working at it pretty hard to keep going. Keep going to get this done so we can get on with the other stuff."]

[Jones - "I don't remember that the prior crews went to their knees very often. Some, but not a lot."]

[Scott - "Well, it was a natural thing. It wasn't like 'I'm going to get down on my knees.' It was sort of like 'I've got to get the wrench; how do I do that?' So, without thinking about it, I bend down on my knees to get on with this thing. I've known since the early days in Gemini, 'Get ahead and stay ahead,' 'cause you know you're going to get behind on the timeline. So, in the back of your mind, you always have this nagging thing. 'Don't waste any time, especially if you know you're behind.'"]

[Jones - "Now, the impression I have is that there's not a lot of padding in this timeline. You guys were right up against it."]

[Scott - "Well, sure. And that was on purpose, 'cause we wanted to get as much done as we could. So fill everything that you can."]

[Jones - "And if you have to drop something, you drop something."]

[Scott - "Yeah. And you don't like to drop anything. So you try to find ways to make up when you're behind."]

[Jones - "I had forgotten that you did as much kneeling as you did, although you have the drill, here, which helps mechanically to get down."]

[Scott - "I'd forgotten that, too. (Chuckles) Never having watched the video. But, after watching the video, I can remember doing it, and I can remember thinking, 'You know, I've got to get on with this.'"]

147:42:23 Allen: That's affirm,...

147:42:24 Irwin: ...... the pictures.

147:42:30 Allen: ...Jim. That is to say, any mag that's empty.

147:42:31 Irwin: Is Oboe a good one?

147:42:32 Allen: That is, any mag that's still full and not exposed, and you can look at the frame number.

147:42:38 Irwin: Oh, I thought you'd be able to give me a quick reading. (Pause)

147:42:45 Allen: Try Oboe Oboe.

147:42:50 Irwin: I already have it.

[Comm Break]

[While Jim and Joe were talking, Dave examined the drill and stem and turned the drill a small amount. He then grabbed the drill with both hands and shook it vigorously up and down. The drill came off. He then put the drill down and got the heat flow probe off the rack. During this comm break, he feeds the probe into the drill stem and gets the rammer; but, apparently, has trouble engaging the rammer on the wire.]

[Dave finally gets the rammer on the wire, but is only able to get it about a foot into the hole. Dave steps away from the drill string and considers the situation. Just before his next transmission, he pulls the rammer out and takes it off the wire.]

147:45:53 Scott: Joe, looks like...Hmm. We may have a problem. Let's see. Can always pull those out and put four more in. (Pause) Joe, I don't think I got the probes all way down. I think that probably one of those cores may have been bent or something. What do you think about that?

147:46:33 Allen: Stand by. (Pause)

[Dave lays the rammer on the rack.]

[Post-mission analysis suggests that Dave's assessment is close to the mark. The following is taken from the Apollo 15 Mission Report. Readers should note that the individual drill stems are about 53 cm long and that there are three such sections in the string in this hole and that about 30 cm of the top section are above the surface. "The (heat flow) probe would not go to the bottom plug of the bottom bore stem in hole 2, but stopped at a point about 6 inches above the first join (that is, the joint between the deepest stem and the one above it). Examination of photographs and heat flow probe data indicate that, near the end of the bore-stem drilling operation, the first joint was separated when the drill and drill string were moved vertically - up and down - in an attempt to improve the drill penetration rate. Easier penetration - for approximately 6 inches - was reported by the crew, but it resulted from the bottom of the second (middle) section apparently performing more in a coring manner - Fig 14-43 - with the lunar soil entering the second section of the bore stem. The (planned) change from boron/fiberglass to threaded titanium (to take care of the flute/cuttings problem) will prevent a repetition of such a separation."]

[Figure 4-6 from the Mission Report shows the final configuration of the probes in the two holes, together with the planned configuration.]

[At the time of the mission review, Dave was unaware of this conclusion or any of the others regarding the drilling problems.]

[Jones - "You never debriefed this?"]

[Scott - "We never debriefed this. Are you kidding? Again, this is the first time I've ever heard it. Well, we might have at some point after the flight. Nah, because all our debriefing occurred in the first week or so after we got back. So, if they (eventually) knew what happened, they probably didn't know it then."]

[Jones - "I'll find a place in the transcript to include this stuff but, the design of the drill stem was such that, in the join between various sections, they had a fatter envelope and the cuttings were jamming in there, which is why it was binding in the hole. Then, possibly at 147:30:13 when you managed to pull it back up, what you managed to do was to detach one of the sections from the one below. And then, when you started drilling again, it came down along the side of it and stopped."]

[Scott - "Oh really!?"]

[Jones - "Then, when you put the probe in, it didn't go very far. It went down a couple of sections."]

[Scott - "How'd they figure that out? Or did they?"]

[Jones - "Analysis, obviously; not direct knowledge."]

[Scott - "I mean, it's a diagram there."]

[Jones - "After the flight, they used what data they had. But you're right."]

[Scott - "I mean, people should know somebody guessed so that, when they look it up, they don't say, 'Oh, those guys know exactly what's up there and that's what happened."]

[Jones - "Good point. It's conjecture."]

[Scott - "Right. The diagram you showed me makes it look like conclusive evidence. I haven't read the narrative, but it makes sense that that's what happened. But nobody ever talked to me about it. Nobody asked me, 'What did it feel like, or could this have happened? Did you disconnect it?' Or whatever."]

[Jones - "Let's see, you didn't spend any time in quarantine after the flight. That's right, isn't it?"]

[Scott - "Yeah, unfortunately. Which we have talked about. When you get back, you need to focus on the job and not go out and go to parties and satisfy the whole world signing pictures. What you should do is sit down behind closed doors, with the scientists and engineers who put it all together, and scrub down as much as you can (that is, do a thorough debrief), while it's fresh in your mind and get some rest. Rather than going out and trying to do everything for everybody, with no time and already being tired."]

147:46:53 Scott: That's where I had it, Joe. Right on top. The probe went down a couple, two out of the four.

[In response to Houston's suggestion, Dave has pulled the probe far enough up that the top emerges from the top drill stem. He then starts to lower the probe back in the hole.]

147:47:13 Scott: Okay. (Long Pause)

[Dave takes the probe completely out of the hole and, without putting the probe on the rack, gets the rammer and drops it into the drill string. The rammer is longer than Dave is tall and, once it is in the hole, the top is about at the level of Dave's camera. This suggests that the tip is about a meter below the surface and is resting on the postulated soil block at the bottom of the middle section.]

147:47:44 Allen: Roger, Dave. (Pause)

147:47:50 Scott: And the front of the probe (meaning the tip that goes into the hole first) looks okay.

147:47:53 Allen: Okay. Why don't we try it again?

Video Clip   2 min 34 sec ( 0.7 Mb RealVideo or 23 Mb MPG )

147:47:59 Scott: All righty. (Long Pause)

[Dave removes the rammer and, during his next transmission, puts the probe in the hole.]

147:48:26 Irwin: Okay, Joe, the ALSEP pictures are complete.

147:48:29 Allen: Roger. Jim, we copy that. Stand by a minute. (Long Pause)

[Jim has taken four pictures of the heat flow experiment. AS15-92-12406 is a Cross-Sun from the north of the east Heat Flow hole with the RTG in the background at the upper right. In 12407, Dave is using the rammer-jammer to test the depth of the west Heat Flow hole at about 147:47:13. He has the Heat Flow sensor in his left hand and the vise/wrench in his right thigh pocket. The drill-stem rack is in the foreground and, in it, we can see sections of the deep core Dave will drill next. Note the considerable distance between the flutes. Frame 12408 shows Dave working at the west Heat Flow hole with St. George in the background. The drill is sitting on the ground next to the hole. Note the wire loop that Dave can use to pick up the drill. The PSE is to the right of the Central Station. In 12409 Dave has his back to us. Also visible are the drill, drill-stem rack, Central Station, PSE, Solar Wind Spectrometer, RTG, and, in the background, St. George Crater.]

[Meanwhile, Dave has attached the rammer to the wire and, once again, is only able to get it a short way into the hole.]

147:48:45 Scott: That's it, Joe, it won't go further unless I try and force it.

147:48:46 Allen: ...we've decided it's about time you start on your Station 8 trench, if you would, please.

147:48:53 Irwin: (Deadpan) Thanks a lot.

147:48:57 Scott: (Resting while he talks) Hey, Joe, it won't go in any further than that without really trying to force it. I could try and push it with the rammer if you want, but I suspect the first thing (chuckles) would be the rammer would collapse.

147:49:07 Allen: Stand by.

147:49:08 Scott: I could try. (Pause)

147:49:19 Allen: Okay, Dave, our reading is: using your calibrated arm, put about 15 to 20 pounds of force on it, and we'll be satisfied with whatever we get.

147:49:32 Scott: Okay. (Pause)

[The TV image jiggles as Jim works at the Rover. There is no evident motion of the rammer as Dave pushes on it with both hands.]

147:49:44 Allen: Okay. That's good.

147:49:49 Scott: (Resting as he talks) It's stuck, Joe, and I think where it's stuck is where the third probe joins the second probe. And, you know, you can never get those things apart. But I got four other probes in here; if you want me to pull out the four we got and stick the other four in, in hopes that it gets down some distance, we could try that if you like.

147:50:10 Allen: Stand by. (Pause) Dave, we'd like the rammer-jammer reading and have it pulled out, then we'll take what we got. It's a good job.

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MP3 Audio Clip ( 6 min 05 sec )

147:50:24 Scott: Okay. Sorry I couldn't get it all the way in, because that sure isn't very far. (Reading a mark on the rammer where it goes into the top drill stem) Bravo 9.

147:50:34 Allen: Roger. (Long Pause)

[Dave carefully removes the rammer so that he doesn't pull the probe up.]

[Once Dave disengages the rammer from the probe wire, he puts it along side the drill string and positions it so that the "Bravo 9" mark is at the top of the string. The location of the tip corresponds to the top of the probe in the drill string and, from the TV, it is about 6 inches above the surface.]

147:50:50 Allen: ...us an outside reading.

147:50:55 Scott: An outside reading? What do you mean?

147:50:58 Allen: Never mind, we got it already off the TV.

[Somebody in the Backroom realized that Dave had just given them the desired information, albeit non-verbally.]

147:51:19 Scott: Okay.

[Dave started to measure the length of pipe sticking out of the ground but, once he realized that Houston had the information they needed, he stopped and is now tamping the dirt around the drill string by planting his right foot and pressing firmly on the surface.]

147:51:21 Scott: The other thing I'm going to do, Joe, is re-align the...(Stops to listen)

147:51:22 Allen: ...leave, we want you to make sure the cables are lying as flatly as possible on the surface.

147:51:31 Scott: Okay. And I'll also make sure that the box (meaning the Heat Flow Electronics package or HFE) is aligned.

147:51:38 Allen: Good idea. (Long Pause)

[Scott, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "After the initial alignment and all the shuffling around there with the probes and all, and one point I tripped over one of the wires to the probe and I moved the electrical box from its alignment position. I think the ground called up and asked some question relative to the position of wires or Boyd bolts around the electrical box. Maybe they were trying to get data, and the thing wasn't properly aligned. I did re-align it after we went out the second time."]

[Dave picks up the rack and carries it off-camera to the right to the place where he plans to drill the deep core.]

147:52:06 Allen: Roger. (Long Pause)

[Fendell pulls back on the zoom and follows Dave. Dave puts the rack down, removes a Universal Handling Tool (UHT) and heads back to the HFE.]

147:52:32 Scott: Really?! You'd have fooled me.

147:52:36 Allen: Roger.

[Scott - "I wonder if this is a correct statement. 'Cause it didn't look right."]

[Jones - "It doesn't seem right to me, either. After all, there's another drill stem down there. Maybe what they mean is that the probe went to the same depth as the rammer jammer (about 100 cm below the surface.)."]

147:52:49 Scott: No they haven't, Joe. Well, there were a couple of red washers sitting on the connectors there. The sleeves were gone, yeah.

147:53:05 Allen: Okay, we copy. Thank you. (Pause)

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[Dave uses the UHT to try to improve the alignment and leveling of the HFE. Jim is at the Rover and briefly crosses the TV field-of-view.]

147:53:19 Irwin: Oh, I picked up a pink rock and a black rock. And they're documented.

[Scott, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "You picked up a couple of rocks back there (at the ALSEP site). You picked up your black one."]

[Irwin, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "What I referred to as pink."]

[Scott, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "Pink."]

[Irwin, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "Pink with light plagioclase in it."]

[Scott, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "Did it really? You got to pick up rocks while I had to drill. You have all the luck."]

[Irwin, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "We both had our (difficult) thing. I was doing other things. I dug the trench."]

[Frame AS15-92- 12410 is a cross-Sun "before" of the "black rock", which is sample 15059, a 1.15 kilogram glass-coated breccia. This interesting picture shows a patch of disturbed lunar soil next to an undistributed patch. It also shows some well-defined footprints and the sprays of soil that Jim kicked in front of himself. Jim will collect the football-sized rock near the central fiducial.]

[Frame 12411 is a stereo companion to 12410.]

[Frame 12412 is a down-Sun of the black rock shows Dave at the west Heat Flow hole with the SIDE/CCIG in the foreground, the Heat Flow Electronics beyond that, and the magnetometer in the distance beyond Dave.]

[Frame 12413 is a down-Sun of a second football-sized rock near the ALSEP. This "pink rock with plagioclase" is sample 15058, a 2.67 kilogram basalt.]

[Frame 12414 is a stereo companion and 12415 is a cross-Sun.]

[Jim runs toward the Central Station, giving us a good back view of the loping stride and the side to side motion of his entire motion as he goes from foot-to-foot. As he gets near the Central Station, he slows and switches to a flat-footed walk to avoid spraying dust.]

[Scott - "One thing I'm noticing is that you don't see our PLSSs bouncing at all. When I was in Houston for that discussion on suits and PLSSs and all that, they had a video they were showing everybody - and I guess it was Charlie's (on Apollo 16) - of a PLSS that was bouncing like crazy as he trotted across the plains there. And they were using that to make the point that you should have the PLSS integrated with the suit because 'look how bad these PLSSs were. They bounce when you run across the plain.' I don't know if you've seen that one. I'm pretty sure it was Charlie's tape. But, obviously, if you put the PLSS on properly, it doesn't bounce. It's secure. So the folks in Houston were using an anomalous video to try to make a point."]

["I'm not sure how significant this is. But they were asking 'Is this a good system?' And it's an excellent system. But somebody had dug out this one scene with a PLSS bouncing like mad, and they were saying, 'No, it's not a good system and we've got to have everything totally integrated - the suit and the PLSS together.' Well, I'm not sure that's a good idea. I think this is a good idea, the way it was designed here. Maybe it is a good idea to integrate everything. But it depends on what kind of spacecraft you're going to have and how you work and everything that goes with that. But they shouldn't use an anomalous video scene to try justify a major design change. It would be interesting to see if anybody else had a problem because, if your PLSS is bouncing, it's because you didn't put it on right. The way they're designed is to be firm; and you can see ours are firm. They don't bounce. We never had the bounce problem."]

["And while we're on the subject, I might also make the comment that they showed me another scene of Charlie bending down to pick up a fragment he'd chipped off a rock. And they were saying, 'See, these suits are not flexible, because it was hard for him to bend down to pick up a rock.' And I said, 'Where are his tongs?' And the guy said, 'Tongs?' He didn't even know that we had tongs; and they're making big decisions on the suit based on that kind of information. So goes NASA today! So they've got these suits with all sorts of joints in 'em. Fifty joints so you can bend down and do all these wonderful things! Well, there's fifty places where things can go wrong, too. Do you really need it? You don't really need it. I mean, it was hard work bending the suit but we got everything done that we needed to get done. You don't need to crawl around. In fact, it's good not to crawl around, 'cause you get all dirty. But they're designing suits with all these joints and all these convolutes in them, so they are very, very flexible; and the cost is millions and reliability in probably going way down, because of all those joints."]

[Jones - "And the durability of the suits is going down."]

[Scott - "They're making them too complicated. They ought to just leave it alone. I thought I should make the point for the record. I liked my suit. It worked well. It was hard work but, on the other hand, it was designed very well and it worked 100 percent. Why spend a billion dollars changing it? Spend a billion dollars going back to the Moon."]

[Dave then talked a little bit about the Hubble Repair Mission, a Shuttle flight that was in progress while we were doing this part of the Apollo 15 review.]

[Scott - "I looked at a few scenes the night before last. I got pretty bored. They weren't doing much. I mean, they have to go slow and careful; but look at all this stuff we're doing!"]

[Jones - "It's a very different environment."]

[Scott - "But we have many things here. Tools and drills and ALSEPs and cameras and MESAs and Rovers and LMs and etc, etc, etc. I mean, I'm not bad-mouthing what's going on now, 'cause they're doing a great job. Except it's not a lot to do, comparatively speaking, 'cause they don't have a lot of things, even though somebody said they're carrying 280 tools. I mean, I'm not all that familiar with the details of what they're doing. But, having watched it, it's pretty slow going. It should be. And I read in the papers that this is the first time they've ever had 5 EVAs on a mission. Well, it seems to me we had five EVAs on 15, but maybe something didn't count. And we did all five with the same three guys."]

[Jones - "Three EVAs out on the lunar surface, the SEVA and Al (Worden)'s EVA during the trip home to retrieve the SIM Bay film canisters."]

[Scott - "That's five depresses and five outsides, although one time I was out and the other time Al was out, but Jim's always depressurized. And they're making a big deal out of this record five EVAs! Okay. Whatever they need."]

[For the record, Dave and Jim also did a depress prior to launch in order to jettison unneeded gear. That makes six depresses. However, because they didn't go outside, it doesn't count as an EVA.]

147:53:31 Allen: Not a bad idea.

[Jim's breathing is a bit labored, perhaps as a result of picking up the rocks. It returns to normal quickly.]

[Jim's last transmission is very difficult to understand and was originally transcribed as "There's a possibility we're just (garbled)."]

[Jim comes into view, headed for the Central Station. The trip takes him about 36 seconds. Figure 5-52 from the Preliminary Science Report indicates that the distance from the front of the Rover to the Central Station was, during this time spent at the ALSEP site, about 29 m. Jim's speed during the run was a modest 2.9 km/hr.]

147:53:44 Irwin: (Chuckling) Yeah. (Long Pause)

[During the mission review, Dave and I were unable to fathom Joe's meaning. In a 1996 letter, Dave noted "the gnomon is normally put down to mark the 'spot'" and that observation suggests that, in this instance, Joe is saying Dave is the gnomon. This is another example of Joe's extremely dry wit.]

147:54:24 Allen: Okay, Dave, copy. And, Jim, what are you up to there?

147:54:30 Irwin: Oh, I'm just checking the Central Station.

147:54:34 Allen: Roger. The alignment's beautiful.

[Fendell zooms in on Jim at the Central Station. Because the Rover is parked almost due east of the Central Station and the landing site is at a longitude of only 3 degrees 39 minutes east, this view of the Central Station antenna gives us a good estimate of the elevation of Earth in the Hadley sky.]

147:54:41 Allen: Hey, again, it's working perfectly.

147:54:47 Scott: Okay.

147:54:48 Irwin: I won't touch it, Joe. (Playfully) I swear!

147:54:51 Scott: Hey, Joe, if Jim took a picture of the heat flow box, the one he took probably isn't representative of the proper alignment, which it now has.

147:55:01 Irwin: I'll come over and take another one.

147:55:03 Scott: Okay. Come on over.

147:55:06 Allen: Jim, just make sure you are well clear of the (Central Station) antenna, with your PLSS there, old friend. (Pause)

[Jim backs away from the Central Station and then goes to join Dave at the HFE.]

[Scott - "They're dying, back in Houston, watching Jim. 'Don't step on it! Don't move back! Don't move forward. Don't hit the antenna!' Maybe it's not good to have TV, right?. It gives 'em heart palpitations back in the Control Room."]

[Jones - "Especially this first time they've had this much TV."]

147:55:26 Irwin: I need an antenna like that on my PLSS. (Long Pause)

147:55:41 Irwin: I picked up that black, glassy rock, Dave.

147:55:43 Scott: Good.

147:55:44 Irwin: And I picked up another pink one that looked like it had a lot of the plagioclase glass in it.

147:55:49 Scott: Good. Don't step on this (cable between the HFE and the east probe); I'm trying to get it stretched out flat. (Pause) There. (Pause)

[After Dave finishes with the cable, he goes to the HFE to double-check the alignment, accidently dropping the wrench along the way. Jim takes AS15-92- 12416. The Central Station is in the background and we can also see the RTG, the Solar Wind Spectrometer, the PSE, and assorted trash. Dave's shadow is in the foreground.]