Station 4 at Dune Crater

Heat Flow Reprise

 

Return to the LM

Corrected Transcript and Commentary Copyright © 1996 by Eric M. Jones.
All rights reserved.
Last revised 17 February 2009.

MP3 Audio Clip ( 13 min 38 sec ) by David Shaffer

146:45:46 Allen: Beautiful, Davey. Beautiful. And some more words...

146:45:51 Irwin: Camera's on...

146:45:52 Allen: ...about your next assignments coming up here. Dave, we want you to drop Jim at the LM and I'll talk to him in a minute. And then you go on over park near ALSEP, headed west.

146:46:10 Scott: Okay, understand, Joe. (Pause) Boy, there sure are a lot of neat rocks in the Dune. Too bad we can't spend some more time.

146:46:28 Allen: On your next trip.

146:46:31 Irwin: (Lost under Joe)

146:46:33 Scott: Yeah, next trip. You're right.

146:46:36 Allen: And, Jim, you might want to start the camera.

146:46:41 Irwin: Yeah, it's running, Joe.

146:46:45 Scott: Let's see. Think we can get through up here? Seems to me we could.

146:46:50 Irwin: Yeah, I think you should be able to. Maybe a little to the right?

146:46:56 Scott: Yeah, I'll come right now. Past this little bump. (Pause) And we're in the little boulder field. And about a foot, at the biggest, down to about 6 inches.

146:47:10 Irwin: Yeah, it looks like from a crater that hit on the rim of Dune.

146:47:14 Scott: Yeah, it sure does.

146:47:16 Irwin: Joe. We're reading on a bearing of 350, range 3.3.

146:47:20 Scott: Okay, and we're on our tracks.

146:47:22 Allen: Roger. And follow 'em home.

146:47:29 Scott: Okay. (Pause)

[These readouts put them at BE.4/75.6. The fact that they are re-tracing their outbound tracks suggests that they are close to the west rim of Dune as shown on Ken Rattee's map. The changes in LM bearing and range since leaving Station 4 - 347/3.4 to 350/3.3 - are also consistent with a location near the rim.]

[Scott, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "I didn't notice anything particular driving back. You could see albedo changes where we'd been. Any disturbance of the soil was apparent. These Rover tracks were a little different."]

[Irwin, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "A little darker."]

[Scott, from the 1971 Technical Debrief - "Yes."]

146:47:37 Irwin: Oh, it is.

146:47:38 Scott: (Laughing) It's a good deal. You hop off and work like mad for 10 minutes and hop back on, sit down, and take a break. (Pause)

[This is one of the many advantages that the Rover provides. Not only do the crews have greater range and carrying capacity, but they arrive at the geology stations rested. The difference is dramatic between this Apollo 15 experience and the experience of the Apollo 14 crew during their arduous climb to the summit of the Cone Crater ridge. I asked Dave about walking traverses they might have trained for as the Apollo 12 backup crew.]

[Scott - "I don't remember. Whatever 12 did, we did."]

[Jones - "Well, they did a total traverse of a kilometer in two-plus hours on the second EVA."]

[Scott - "We did the same thing that Pete and Al did. I'm not sure I remember any real traverse planning on 12. I don't think the system was to that point yet, where you laid out a specific traverse with stations. On 12 we learned how to sample stations, but I don't think we did much in terms of planning stops along the route. Did we?"]

[Jones - "Yeah, you did. By the time they landed they had a map with traverses laid out depending where around the crater they landed."]

[Scott - "Yeah, I remember that."]

[Jones - "And they were planning to go to Bench Crater and Sharp and Halo."]

146:48:07 Scott: Yeah.

146:48:08 Irwin: But we never did get a chance to really sample any of those. As I recall, we saw one on the, what, south side of the Dune, on the way down.

146:48:19 Scott: Yeah.

146:48:24 Irwin: We could probably save some time going back by not following the tracks, you know, because...

146:48:28 Scott: Yeah...

146:48:29 Irwin: ...we can see the LM.

146:48:30 Scott: You're right. I think we ought to head right straight ahead. We can see home.

146:48:33 Irwin: The only big crater over that way would probably be Earthlight. (Pause) I think that's probably Earthlight that we see at 12 o'clock.

146:48:47 Scott: Yep.

146:48:48 Irwin: If we stay west of Earthlight, we ought to save a little distance.

146:48:52 Scott: Yeah, (but) let's get out of this little boulder field first. (Pause)

[During the southbound traverse, they drove east of Earthlight. Jim is correct, a straight-line route to the LM will hit the south rim of Earthlight, as indicated on Ken Rattee's map.]

[Although Schaber Hill does not appear on the map showing feature names at the Apollo 15 landing site, Dave's description - and the comment that follows - suggests that it is the rise that forms the north rim of Pluton Crater. AS15-84- 11324 (scan courtesy NASA Johnson) is Dave's 500-mm photograph of the LM and Pluton taken from Station 6. As can be seen in Part A of the EVA-3 traverse map, they are planning to do Station 13 on the northwest rim of Pluton in the area near the fiducial mark one to the left and one above center in the 500-mm photograph. This rise is probably Schaber Hill. David Harland has located an excellent view of the North Complex and Schaber Hill - on the near side of the rille to the right of center - as seen from the Command Module.]

[Scott - "Gerry Schaber did a lot of work on the North Complex and on planning the traverses. Young guy at USGS in Flagstaff. Part of the team. It's too bad we didn't get to the North Complex, 'cause he did a lot of good work."]

[Gerald Schaber writes "I, too, was very disappointed that the crew did not make it to North Complex or 'Schaber Hill'. I coined the name 'North Complex' for this small, hilly area of overlapping large crater rims and ejecta north of the planned landing site while compiling the detailed geologic map of the site at 1:12,5000 scale months prior to the mission. The hills of the North Complex were ready-made as a distant reference point north of the LM site; thus, we told the crew to note them during descent if possible. Thus, the North Complex was clearly labeled on the Lunar Surface Geologic Map packages that I was put in charge of producing at the USGS-Flagstaff for the Apollo 15 crew to use on the surface."]

["A month or so prior to the Apollo 15 launch, Dave Scott ask me at a geologic traverse briefing at JSC, 'Where would you send us if I gave you and extra hour on the surface?' My mouth dropped and I said that I would probably plan them a very exciting traverse to the North Complex. At that time, we were not absolutely certain that the craters there were actually impact or volcanic (because) the hills had a very low albedo (meaning they were darker than the typical terrain). Dave said to work it out and present the completed traverse to them at our next meeting, which was a week or two later, as I recall. I asked Dave where he planned to free up 60 minutes on the very time-tight traverse plan that we had already designed for them. He said, 'Let me worry about that!' To this day, I am still not certain where he found the extra time."]

["Jim Head - who was then at Bellcom and now at Brown University - and I worked the new traverse out together and I presented it to the crew at that next meeting. Dave and Jim loved it. Unfortunately, they did not get to use that traverse - thanks to the lunar drill - but at least they did get some great 500-mm photographs of it during the Stand-up EVA. Their photos convinced me that the craters were impact (because) we could clearly see white breccia fragments in the rim deposits. Dave later brought that 500-mm lens back with him under his (CM) crew seat; and it got banged up a little when they had to land (in the Pacific) with only two of their three parachutes."]

146:50:00 Irwin: Yeah, a very fine lath.

146:50:02 Scott: Yeah, a very fine lath. And on the top, it had some smaller millimeter-size vesicles, and adjacent to it was another, lighter-gray, vesicular basalt, which was uniform in vesicularity, and which we didn't have time to sample, but the vesicles in that looked similar to that one rock that we got yesterday, Jim. The rounded one? Remember that was in the bag alone. Anyway, these vesicles were, gee, I'd say 4 millimeters to...some of them, were a centimeter all the way through it. And the two rocks seemed to be in contact with each other. Unfortunately, we didn't have time to sample the second one, but we did get a fairly good sample of the corner of the first one and the central part near one of the vesicles.

[Vesicles are relics of gas bubbles trapped in the cooling basalt. Because large bubbles will rise toward the surface of a lava flow more rapidly than small bubbles, the original orientation of the boulder can be inferred by the gradient in vesicle size. Lunar basalts are not believed to have been very viscous when molten and, consequently, the very large vesicles also indicate that the rock was probably dug out of the very top of the flow.]

146:51:15 Irwin: Okay, we're doing...Well, that can wait. Okay, the camera is empty, Joe, (grunting slightly, probably as he leans forward to shut the camera off) so we got some coverage there. (Pause) And we're going at about 10 clicks; amps reads about 10.

146:51:46 Allen: Okay, sounds good. (Pause)

146:51:52 Irwin: That might be Earthlight up ahead, Dave.

146:51:54 Scott: I think you're right. I guess we'd better go east of it, huh?

146:51:56 Irwin: Yeah. (Pause)

146:52:03 Scott: (Grunts)

146:52:05 Irwin: We might end up on our tracks.

146:52:07 Scott: (Laughing) Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I think I'll make it up.

[They may be climbing.]

146:52:29 Irwin: Yeah.

146:52:31 Scott: Visibility-wise. (Pause)

146:52:40 Irwin: Okay; coming down this morning. I guess we looked over at Earthlight, didn't we?

146:52:44 Scott: Yeah.

146:52:45 Irwin: Commented on the southern rim of it (at 143:27:03). (Pause)

146:52:54 Scott: Yeah, we're in good shape now! It's a straight shot. See the old LM sitting out there? Start making out detail on it. We're (at a) range, 2.4. I think we're closer than that.

[As we know from the stop at Station 4, they are about 270 meters NNE of the indicated position and, therefore, are at a range of about 2.1 or 2.2 km and have finished he drive around the east side of Earthlight. Because they haven't mentioned seeing their outbound tracks - as Jim will do at 146:57:58 when they get close to Arbeit - they have probably driven between the east rim of Earthlight and the outbound track.]

[The Apollo crews tended to underestimate distances of craters and boulders, having no absolute scale nor increasing obscuration with distance - due to haze - to help them. The known size of the LM should give them a better chance of estimating an accurate distance. It seems unlikely that the difference between the indicated range (2.4) and the actual range (2.1 or 2.2) is enough to give Dave the impression of being significantly closer than 2.4 km and, most likely, this is another example of underestimating distances.]

[Scott, from a 1996 letter - "Also, the figure of the LM is such a sharp contrast to the natural lunar features, it probably looked larger than it was."]

146:53:21 Scott: Yeah.

146:53:27 Allen: Jim, I've got some words for your next task when you arrive at the LM, if you're ready (to listen).

146:53:36 Irwin: Go ahead, Joe.

146:53:37 Allen: Roger. For both of you now! Dave, we want you to stop at the LM and you'll have to off-load your collection bags and get configured for the next part of the EVA. Jim, we want you to run a mal(function) procedure on your camera. If you can't get that mag to work, put on mag Kilo Kilo and then your first job will be the LM site pans and then photographs of the descent engine and photographs of the solar-wind-composition experiment - the window shade. Those three sets of photographs. Do you copy?

146:54:15 Irwin: Yes. I understand, Joe.

146:54:18 Allen: Okay. (Pause) And, Dave and Jim. I'll talk you through the reconfiguration of the equipment when you're ready for it. I think we have a good handle on it down here.

146:54:33 Scott: Joe, why don't you wait till we get to the Rover (meaning the LM)? Because it'll just slip right through us right now.

146:54:37 Allen: Roger, Dave...

146:54:38 Scott: So, wait until we get there.

146:54:39 Allen: ...that's exactly the plan. I'll be standing by, and when it's time, I just talk you through it.

146:54:45 Scott: Okay. That's just fine.

146:54:53 Irwin: As far as Dave's bag, Joe. I forget the number on it, but I'll just take out the core tubes that we have not used, and then it will be ready to go in SRC 2. Is that correct?

146:55:08 Allen: Sounds good! (Pause)

146:55:19 Irwin: Do you agree with that, as far as Dave's bag?

146:55:25 Allen: That agrees, we think, Jim. We'll think it over once again here.

146:55:32 Irwin: Okay. (To Dave) Think you can get through there, Dave?

146:55:39 Scott: No. I'm going to go around to the right. Miss this boulder here. There's a directional set of ejecta; isn't it?

146:55:46 Irwin: It sure is.

146:55:47 Scott: Look at that! It's right straight out one side. It would be a good place to take a radial sample. That thing came in from...Let's see, we'll be...

146:55:56 Irwin: West. We're going north...

146:55:58 Scott: Yeah, we're going north and the ejecta pattern is spread out due west about 20 meters across; and it must go out a good 150 meters or so.

[Directionality of the ejecta blanket indicates a low velocity, secondary impact]

146:56:09 Scott: Yeah. And our bearing is 347 and our range 2.0 at that point.

146:56:20 Allen: Roger. (Pause)

[These readouts indicate a position of BK.6/75.1. Using the same correction that applied at Station 4, Ken Rattee puts them at about BL.5/75.8.]

146:57:16 Irwin: This time we ought to get the covers up in the cabin, Dave.

146:57:20 Scott: Get the what?

146:57:21 Irwin: The covers. You know, the Bull Durham sacks.

146:57:23 Scott: Yeah, I know it. (Garbled)

[Jones - "In trying to figure out what Jim's talking about, the thing that comes to mind is putting the legs of the suit in sacks because of the dirt."]

[Scott - "Yeah, we were real dirty. I would guess that's what he's probably talking about. Bull Durham bags, you know what those look like, for Bull Durham Tobacco. These look very much like big Bull Durham bags."]

[Jones - "Bull Durham bags are the big gunny sacks. Yours were made out of beta cloth?"]

[Scott - "Yeah."]

[David Woods points out that some readers will need help with these Americanisms. "Gunny" is a coarse, heavy fabric, similar to burlap, usually woven from jute or hemp. Like "dungaree", the word originated in India.]

146:57:27 Scott: Yes, I guess we'd better. (Laughs)

[Ken Rattee shows a change in course to NNE at about this point. "Looking at the Arbeit area close-up gave me an idea fits the dialogue and Nav readouts. On the inbound route, after rounding Earthlight to the east, they headed straight for the LM (146:52:54 'It's a straight shot. See the old LM sitting out there?'). South of Arbeit at this heading they would be confronted by a line of four craters ('c' on the Pan Camera detail) which perhaps might of looked too imposing to snake thru and indeed in the dialogue around this point - 146:57:25 Irwin: 'You got to go around to the right'; 146:57:27 Scott: 'Yes, I guess we'd better' So they veered east and shortly after at 146:57:58 noticed their outbound tracks. To me the clincher is the dialogue at 146:58:07 Irwin: 'The one on our left here?' 146:58:08 Scott: 'Yeah. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's Index. It's got the nice side crater in the north.' 146:58:19 Irwin: 'Yeah, I thought Index had a larger crater though on the north side.' The range of 1.7 quoted for these comments would put them abreast of Arbeit after applying the Dune correction. Looking at the Arbeit close-up, the north wall crater is prominent, one could easily imagine mistaking Arbeit for Index by misjudging size, and there are no other sizeable craters with a noticeable north wall crater evident in this area. Putting the route east of Arbeit fits the 340,1.5 inbound Nav reading to the Dune correction as well. With the route west of Arbeit (as Ken had originally proposed), I had thought it odd that the Nav reading should be suddenly accurate after fairly consistent error magnitudes since the slopes of Hadley Delta."]

["Arbeit would probably be the '50m' crater in the outbound dialogue at 143:23:22 - although it is actually about 120 m in diameter. If this identification is correct, it surely shows how difficult it is to judge size on the lunar surface, misjudging the crater to be over half as small as actual on the way out while initially misidentifying it with a crater over three times its size on the way back."]

["Playing the 'figure-out-what-feature-they're-talking-about' game, I'm guessing that feature 'b' in the Arbeit detail is the 30m crater at 143:21:28 and one of the 'd' features is the doublet at 143:25:44."]

146:57:33 Scott: Go ahead, Houston. Rover, here.

146:57:36 Allen: Roger, Dave. Be advised that the ALSEP is picking up the rumble of the Rover rolling across the plains.

146:57:44 Scott: Is that right!? How about that!

146:57:47 Allen: (Joking) And according to our data, you're heading right for the LM.

146:57:50 Scott: Jim, I think...(Responding to Joe) Aah! Yeah, you can give us a DF on the seismometer.

146:57:57 Allen: Roger.

[Scott - "DF, or Direction Finding, is a technique fighter planes used to get to home base during World War II. When I was flying in Europe we used what they called DFQGHGCA, which was direction finding from a ground radar. They told you which way to go, from home base...You know, home base tells you to go 360 or whatever and then they tell when to start letting down, altitude-wise, and then they Ground-Controlled Approach into a landing. So the reference here is that the seismometer is right next to the LM so, from the seismometer, they can tell us which direction to go to get home."]

[Jones - "But the seismometer doesn't give you any direction information."]

[Scott - "You could imagine that, if we turned right right now, the magnitude of the seismic waves would decrease."]

[According to the Apollo 15 Preliminary Science Report, "Signals were recorded from astronaut activities, particularly the movements of the lunar roving vehicle (Rover), at all points along the traverses - maximum range, approximately 5 km. The variation with range of Rover-generated seismic signals provides a measure of the amplitude decay law for seismic signals generated at close range."]

146:57:59 Allen: ...Stand by for practice DF steer.

146:58:00 Scott: Yeah, but I still think we were straighter...

146:58:01 Irwin: Yeah.

146:58:03 Scott: (Responding to Joe) Yeah, man! (To Jim) Hey, I think this is Index, Jim.

146:58:07 Irwin: The one on our left here?

146:58:08 Scott: Yeah. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's Index. It's got the nice side crater in the north.

146:58:19 Irwin: Yeah, I thought Index had a larger crater though on the north side.

146:58:22 Scott: Well, I don't know how large "large" is anymore.

146:58:24 Irwin: Yeah.

146:58:25 Scott: (Chuckle) I give up on distances and sizes.

146:58:27 Irwin: Okay, we're (at a range of) 1.7.

146:58:30 Allen: It's probably Arbeit.

[Jim will report a bearing of 340 at 146:59:07 and, if we use that bearing here, a range of 1.7 would put them at BM.0/75.6. Application of the Station 4 correction then puts them near BM.9/76.2.]

146:58:32 Irwin: I don't think so.

146:58:34 Scott: (Hearing Joe) Arbeit. Yeah, yeah. That's right, that's right. We came by that before. Yeah. We might as well just head on over those tracks, because we know we're straight...(Pause)

[Scott - "Arbeit means 'work' in German. By the way, 'Ausgezeichnet' (a German phrase that Joe used at 145:23:45) is not necessarily 'wonderful', it's more like 'excellent'. It's a word that's probably not directly translatable; it's interpretable. I was thinking about that last night. It's 'excellent' or 'super', not 'wonderful'. 'Arbeit' means 'work' and, at some point when we were naming craters, I guess that was going to be one where we worked."]

[Station 8 was planned at Arbeit. See checklist pages CDR-15 to 19 and LMP-15 to 19 for the many tasks they had planned. It did, indeed, promise to be a lot of work.]

146:58:52 Irwin: Notice that crater at 12:30 to us now.

146:58:55 Scott: Yeah. The fresh one.

146:58:56 Irwin: It's fresh and has a very light albedo.

146:58:58 Scott: That's November. Got to be November. Yeah. That's clearly November Crater.

146:59:07 Irwin: Yeah, we're heading 360; the bearing's 340; and the range 1.5.

146:59:14 Allen: We copy that.

146:59:15 Scott: And we were pointing right at November at the time. So, Index is over there on the right. (Pause)

[November is at BR.5/75.3 and the LM is at BS.4/73.3. The bearing and range give an indicated Rover position of BM.8/75.4. Ken Rattee puts them at about BN.3/75.7. From that position, the heading to November Crater is 355 and the southern rim of Index is only about 125 meters from them.]

146:59:34 Scott: (Laughs)

146:59:38 Allen: (Punning) What...

146:59:39 Irwin: What were we...

146:59:40 Allen: ...do you expect traveling on the mare.

146:59:41 Scott: (Laughing) See that one right...

146:59:45 Irwin: (Hearing Joe) Yeah. (To Dave) Are we just about...

146:59:47 Scott: Yeah. (Chuckling) Pretty good machine, isn't it?

146:59:56 Irwin: It sure is. Couldn't ask for better. And we're going 12 clicks.

147:00:05 Allen: And it's a new outdoor record. (Long Pause)

147:00:46 Irwin: Talk about dusty. Whew!

147:00:49 Scott: (Laughs) Yeah, Bo.

[Jones - "What does 'Yeah, Bo' mean?"]

[Scott - "That's an old saying, from way back. I don't remember where I picked it up. From some western movie - Gregory Peck or one of those guys - back when they made good westerns."]

147:00:56 Irwin: No. You know, even if you had rubber tires on here, I think you'd kick up the same amount of dust.

147:01:00 Scott: Yeah.

147:01:01 Irwin: In this kind of terrain.

147:01:02 Scott: And you sure wouldn't climb that hill (referring to the climb to Station 6) like we did. (Pause)

147:01:10 Irwin: Notice that white-colored rock there that we just went...

147:01:12 Scott: Yeah.

147:01:13 Irwin: ...over.

147:01:14 Scott: Uh huh. (Long Pause)

147:01:25 Irwin: Okay. We're still going at 12 clicks; heading 340.

147:01:30 Allen: Roger. Copy, Jim. And I'm wondering if you caught sight of the small crater you saw outbound, which you described as having bedrock in the bottom?

[Jim made that observation at 143:12:48. The small crater showing bedrock is a crater in the eastern wall of last Crater.]

147:01:46 Allen: Okay.

147:01:47 Scott: I don't think so, either.

147:01:50 Irwin: (To Joe) Why? Are you contemplating a stop there?

147:01:53 Allen: Negative. Just curious.

147:01:55 Scott: Yeah, I see it dead a(head)...(Stops to listen to Joe)

147:01:57 Irwin: Where?

147:01:58 Allen: We...

147:01:59 Scott: There it is. See it...

147:02:00 Allen: ...are interested...

147:02:01 Scott: ...on the horizon...

147:02:02 Allen: ...in a Nav reading; an odometer reading. And we're going to measure how far away that is from the LM.

147:02:09 Irwin: Okay. (Pause)

147:02:14 Allen: You can use that Rover for everything.

147:02:20 Scott: Yeah, man! Sure can.

147:02:24 Irwin: Looks like November has a lot of blocks, too, but I can't see any (brief pause) bedrock. I thought the crater that looked like it had bedrock was off to the east of our tracks.

147:02:34 Scott: It is. Over here to our 11 o'clock. I mean...No, no. I'm sorry; you're right. I was thinking of a different one, Jim. (Pause) November has a raised rim which is, I think, unique around here.

147:02:49 Irwin: Kind of a large rock to the north of November.

147:02:54 Scott: Yeah.

147:02:55 Irwin: That looks like it's half buried. (Long Pause)

[The following is a purely academic discussion Dave and I had about the problems caused by the difficulty they are having unambiguously identifying some craters. In the particular case of November Crater, the difference is moot because they are, indeed, looking at the crater they named November before the flight.]

[Scott - "As we go along and we talk about these craters, I wonder if these are really the craters we named before the flight. Should the craters be named based on what we called them during the flight, instead of what we called them before the flight? So, if we're talking about this crater and its characteristics, should we not go back and, regardless of whether this is the pre-flight November or not, designate this one November so that, in the future, if somebody tries to correlate the names with what we saw on the Moon, rather than those we selected before the flight."]

[Dave then argued, at length, that names should be applied to craters described during the mission, rather than to the craters so designated pre-flight.]

[Jones - "The counter argument that I would use is that, while you're driving along, the attitude is, 'Where is the real November Crater. Which one is Index? Which one is Arbeit? Which one is Earthlight?' The attitude, while you were there, was that there is a crater that you named pre-flight that has a given name and, therefore, are you looking at the right crater?"]

[Scott - "That's correct. But, when we discuss the physiological features of the crater, in geologic terms or any other terms, we are then identifying that physical feature with that name. And I guess what I'm saying is that that name was tagged to something else before the flight, some other physical feature, and the tag should be moved to the feature we're discussing."]

[Jones - "It would be interesting to see how much correspondence there is."]

[Scott - "Yeah, it would be. I mean, Dune's probably pretty good; but Spur? I don't know about Spur. Is that the Spur we saw? Anyway, I see what you're saying. 'Cause we're trying to find out, 'Where is that crater that we named before the flight.'"]

[Jones - "You've got a map in front of you and it's a case of the pilot saying 'Where am I?'"]

[Scott - "That's right. But the significance of what we're doing is characterizing the features of the crater and not necessarily trying to find a feature that had a name before the flight. But that would be an interesting exercise so that when people look at this later on and they look at November Crater, they're looking at the right one. Which may have been the one named before the flight but, on the other hand, it may not have been. And there will probably be some uncertainty and ambiguity, 'cause some of the craters we talk about...There's Earthlight, for example. Did we talk much about the characteristics of Earthlight, physically? And if we didn't then, eh, that's not real significant. Or, maybe we should send Arthur Clarke a picture of the real Earthlight. It's probably trivial but, when you get into the naming, that's one of the fun parts. Everybody had a good time doing that."]

[See the discussion following 143:26:57.]

[Jones - "And, of course, there are an awful lot of crater names on the maps that you didn't actually mention during the mission. And my basic philosophy is that those are the names that ought to be preserved. It's your prerogative as explorers to name things."]

[Scott - "Definitely. Yeah, preserve the names. But find out whether those we described physically are the named ones. Maybe leave the pre-flight named ones and call this November One."]

[Jones - "Or False November."]

[Scott - "Or something. Because, during the mission, we are tagging these physical features with a name. And you wouldn't want somebody to get confused. Take November as an example. Before the mission we called a crater at coordinates XYZ123 "November". And some guys reading the geological description of November and looking at a new, high resolution picture taken in 2106, and he's saying 'Those guys did a lousy job of describing November! Because November doesn't look like that at all.' When in fact, we weren't describing November; we were describing this new crater we called November."]

[Jones - "This is not unlike the navigation problems people had in the Pacific prior to the Cook voyages. Cook was, of course, the first person to go into the Pacific with a good chronometer. He also had a copy of the first edition of the Nautical Almanac. He could do things like look at Jupiter telescopically and see where the moons were and use their positions to determine absolute time. He was basically the first European to sail in the Pacific who knew exactly where he was, within a mile or less. Prior to that, it was largely guess work and, during the centuries of Spanish domination, they had no idea about where they were, except in really rough generalities. And so things were lost and discovered again. Mis-described. A similar kind of problem, albeit on a much larger scale."]

[Scott - "Very similar problem."]

[Jones - "Which is even present on the first 17 EVA - despite superb overhead photography taken on your flight - because Gene didn't know exactly where he landed. His estimates of the landing location were off by 100 to 150 meters, which caused a certain amount of confusion as to what crater was what. Of course, once they got a Nav readout at a known location, the problem went away and they had no trouble about knowing where they were."]

[Scott - "I think we were more uncertain about where we were and, therefore, we could have missed the craters."]

[Jones - "On a fine scale, the small, subtle craters. The 17 stations were mostly at relatively large craters, and the big stuff..."]

[Scott - "Yeah. The big stuff is pretty clear, because the photographs revealed the big stuff. And, in the not too distant future, they're going to have one-meter resolution, and they're going to be able to really see this stuff. So, we should make sure that the names are tagged properly so that, if they are looking at November Crater, they're looking at the one we are today calling November crater, not the one we did six months before in the Crew Quarters with a lousy photograph. Hopefully they're the same. But if they're not the same, that should be a point of clarification so that the correlation can be made properly. It would be a fun exercise."]

[Jones - "And I'll guarantee you that there is somebody out there who would love to do it."]

[Scott - "Absolutely. In fact, I'd enjoy doing it myself, just looking at 'where were we?' 'Cause I'm still not sure, exactly, where we were."]

[Jones - "Well, when you retire and you're ready to sit down and do that, I'd be delighted to join in the exercise. Sometime when we've both got a week we could devote to it."]

[Scott - "There's another point on that, though. If you're going to start correlating rocks and samples with a location on the Moon, you need to know which location you're talking about. Again, in the future, they'll probably get some very high-resolution photographs, but it's unlikely anybody'll be on the surface of the Moon for a long, long time. So you'll have a period of academic and scientific interest during which people will most likely evaluate the data available. There will be a lot of orbital data available; but I doubt there will be much surface data available. So, correlation needs to be linked to the physical site at which we picked up the rock."]

[Jones - "I can imagine that might be particularly important for things like the Autolycus ray, in the soil samples, as opposed to samples derived from the local bedrock."]

[Scott - "Well, I think you'd want to tie it all in. The more I think about working with high-resolution orbital imagery - not necessarily photographs, but spectral bands, of which they have some good instruments - the more you're looking at mineralogy in detail. Gamma ray spectrometers going over, (for example). And, when you get to the chemistry part of the thing, you'd want to tie your samples to a location."]

[Jones - "Yeah. If you're doing chemical differentiation between the various flows in the basalt, you probably want to know where the sample came from relative to the crater rim and stuff like that."]

[Scott - "And the Rover navigation is certainly not high enough resolution to tell you where you were."]

[Jones - "Fifty meters, at best."]

[Scott - "Yeah. And that can make a significant difference. You could be on either side of a contact, very easily. I guess our stops are well tied in from the photographs, and the only confusion is over the names we used."]

147:03:20 Scott: Well, we'll see when we get there.

147:03:22 Irwin: Yeah. (Long Pause) Having a bite to eat.

147:03:52 Scott: Good. (Long Pause)

[We can hear Jim chewing or, at least, knocking his microphone as he reaches down with his teeth to pull out a section of fruit bar and bites off a piece.]

147:04:31 Allen: Roger. Copy. Thank you.

147:04:33 Irwin: Let's enter it.

147:04:36 Scott: Okay. (Pause)

[The indicated position is BP.6/73.7. Ken Rattee puts them at about BP.8/73.8.]

147:05:04 Irwin: Yeah, you'd better. (To Dave) I just didn't see that crater that I...That wasn't the one, Dave.

147:05:18 Scott: Don't think so?

147:05:19 Irwin: No, because it was to the east of us and I looked out and saw a layer of bedrock about a quarter of the way up on the wall.

147:05:37 Allen: Okay, Jim. Give us another odometer reading.

147:05:42 Irwin: No, I haven't seen it!

147:05:43 Allen: Okay. Whenever you pick it up.

147:05:44 Irwin: I haven't been able to see it on the way back.

147:05:48 Allen: Okay, no problems.

147:05:49 Irwin: We're almost back to the LM. (Pause) The freshest one was the one that Dave just gave you the coordinates on.

147:06:02 Allen: Roger.

147:06:06 Irwin: Unless this might have been the one.

147:06:09 Scott: Where?

147:06:10 Irwin: Right here. (Pause) Call it Last.

147:06:18 Scott: No. (Pause)

147:06:24 Irwin: That wasn't the one, that's too large. (Pause)

[Scott - "You notice that, when we're driving along, we're always talking about the geology? That's probably a reflection of driving along with Lee Silver, going on the field trips and looking out the (car) window and talking about the geology. As I recall, when we'd go out on our field trips, we'd leave from some hotel/motel in the morning, and our conversation was usually geology. And we probably got used to doing that. So this is probably a result of that. And, perhaps, the guys back at the Control Center are saying, 'Hey, get back to the LM. We got to get on with this thing!' And Jim and I are doing our normal thing, 'Hey, look at the crater!' It was nothing that was ever planned, but it was sort of what we did. You didn't spend any time with Lee Silver that wasn't productive time."]

[Jones - "I'll ask Charlie to comment on that. Certainly, he and Jack did a great deal of commentary on the things they were driving by. We were talking earlier about doing geology at stations and not worrying terribly much about the traverse. But you do have an opportunity as you're driving by to learn something."]

[Scott - "Let me be perfectly clear. I didn't mean to imply not paying attention to the traverse; I put it in relative terms according to the weighting of importance. You get more out of stopping at a site and sampling and documenting than you do out of traveling, although you can make significant discoveries and get a lot of information out of the travel."]

[Jones - "During Rover exercises like the one you did up at Taos (New Mexico), did you talk about things as you were driving by?"]

[Scott - "I'm not sure we did."]

[Jones - "Are you saying that there wasn't any explicit discussion about keeping up the geology chatter but, rather, that it just came automatically?"]

[Scott - "Well, when we were doing our field trips we probably focused on doing that. I mean, we didn't drive the Rover all that much on field trips. But, as I recall, on the non-official part of the field trip, when you climb into a four-wheeler with all your gear, heading out to a site away from town, the discussion is normally not on the movie last night, but on the geology. And I just recall that Silver was continuously doing this sort of thing, which gets you into the mode of doing it. So, if you're on the Rover, you're pre-programmed mode is to look at the geology and not worry about when you get back to the LM and what core tubes you take out and what ALSEP thing you do. You don't think about that - unless somebody says something explicitly - and you don't just drive along. You're trained, indirectly, to look out the window and talk about the geology."]

[Jones - "As a general rule, it was more the LMP's job to do that because the Commander had to watch the road."]

[Scott - "Yeah. Road! You got to watch the bumps and holes."]

[Jones - "So Jim and Charlie and Jack did most of the traverse descriptions, although you and John and Gene also did a fair share of it. Probably you more than John or Gene, because of the personalities involved. Charlie and Jack are natural chatterers. Jim wasn't so naturally vocal. And, also, you were probably a bit more into the geology than John or Gene were."]

[Jones - "I would be more inclined to think that it was the high gain - rather than the low-gain - that drifted. The low-gain wasn't really in your field-of-view, was it?"]

[Scott - "I could see it, I guess. (After some thought) We're looking at the LM. Why would I all of a sudden make a comment on the antenna on the Rover, when it's been sitting there in front of me, all the time. Now, I look at the LM, now I'm looking at something new. So I may be commenting on the LM antennas."]

[Jones - "There was a lock on the (Rover) high-gain? You usually drive with it pointing straight up, right?"]

[Scott - "Right. I'd have to go look at the LM. The only thing that would be new in my field-of-view would be LM antennas, not Rover antenna."]

[Jones - "Unless you'd been focused on geology and suddenly noticed the Rover."]

[Scott - "Yeah. But the Rover high-gain doesn't really matter until we stop and point it. And the low-gain probably doesn't move very much."]

[Because the large, umbrella-shaped high gain antenna doesn't ride very high over the front of the Rover, it can impede the Commander's view, a fact that Gene Cernan commented on several times during the Apollo 17 EVAs.]

147:06:55 Scott: Oh, yeah! The radar antenna's pointing straight up.

147:07:01 Irwin: Guess it is, that's the white side.

147:07:05 Scott: Yeah. (Pause) (Laughing) Tracks upon tracks, Jim.

147:07:10 Irwin: Yeah, it looks like a thoroughfare. It looks like a freeway.

147:07:12 Scott: Yeah. Okay; we'll take this fork here. (Laughs) (Pause)

147:07:22 Allen: And, Dave, as you know, the only thing we have to worry about, especially with regard to kicking dirt, is the solar wind composition experiment and the LR-Cubed, which is pretty far away.

147:07:36 Scott: Okay, we'll be careful.

147:07:42 Allen: And we'll mark when you stop.

147:07:46 Scott: Roger. We're almost there. (Pause) Home sweet home. (Pause)

147:08:04 Scott: Okay, Jim, I'm going to drop you off right here.

147:08:08 Irwin: Okay.

147:08:09 Scott: Okay, Joe. Run through what you want to do now.

147:08:18 Allen: Okay, the first thing I guess...

147:08:19 Scott: I might get a (film) mag.

147:08:20 Allen: ...is to off load the gear as if you were out at the ALSEP site, with regard to transferring cores, et cetera. (Pause) And we marked...

147:08:32 Irwin: Oh ...

147:08:33 Allen: ... you stopped.

[Joe may be referring to EVA-1 checklist page CDR-22 but, if so, Dave's question at 147:09:57 indicates that Joe's meaning isn't clear to him, either.]

147:08:42 Irwin: Okay.

147:08:51 Allen: And, Jim, standing by for your LRV readouts, if you're still there.

147:08:57 Irwin: Yeah, I am Joe. I'm reading (heading) 004, (bearing) 018; (distance driven) 12.5; (range) 00.2; (amp-hours) 91, 98; (battery temperatures) 92, 98, and motor temps are low.

147:09:22 Allen: Roger, thank you. (Long Pause)

[Although they are actually at the LM, the Nav system thinks the LM is 200 meters NNE or, more specifically, 0.8 map units north and 0.2 map units east.]

147:09:51 Scott: (To Joe) Okay...(Stops to listen).

147:09:53 Irwin: (Responding to Joe) Yeah, we're climbing off.

147:09:57 Scott: Let me ask you a question now. Joe, what did you say? You want us to configure now like we would at the ALSEP site?

147:10:07 Allen: Dave, basically, you just want to unload the collection bags that you're carrying. We want to wind up with collection bag number 2 on the hand tool carrier and number 3 under Jim's seat. (Pause) In addition to that...

147:10:23 Scott: Okay.

147:10:24 Allen: ...we want number 5 on the hand tool carrier.

147:10:37 Scott: 2 and 5 on the hand tool carrier. Okay.

147:10:40 Allen: Rog. And 2 is under Jim's seat right now. We want to trade that out for number 3 going under the seat.

147:10:50 Scott: Okay.

147:10:51 Irwin: I'm wondering if we should take our tools off (the PLSSs). We might as well take our tools off, right, Dave.

147:11:03 Allen: Jim, Roger...

147:11:04 Scott: Yeah, I think probably so.

147:11:05 Allen: ...take your tools off...

147:11:06 Scott: I think so. Don't you, Joe?

147:11:07 Allen: ...and we're going to ask you to deploy the flag a little later, and you probably will need the hammer for that.

147:11:16 Irwin: No, I won't need the hammer (because of the soft soil).

147:11:17 Allen: Okay.

147:11:19 Irwin: Not here. I can't get that mag to operate, Joe. I manually advanced it. It just won't kick over.

147:11:35 Allen: Okay, we copy that.

147:11:36 Irwin: I think I'm going to be forced to...

147:11:37 Allen: Jim. Put on mag Kilo Kilo on that camera, please.

147:11:43 Irwin: I was wondering: is Dave going to need his camera out there?

147:11:46 Scott: No, why don't you take mine. Mine happens to have Kilo on it.

147:11:48 Irwin: Yeah.

147:11:50 Scott: Here (lost under Joe)

147:11:51 Allen: Boy, that's an outstanding idea.

147:11:53 Scott: I don't know where that goes, but I've got two on it.

147:11:58 Irwin: Okay, bag 7. See, this is EVA-3 bag here.

147:12:04 Allen: Roger; bag...

147:12:05 Irwin: Yes, so I'll just put it here.

147:12:06 Allen: ...number 2 should be under that seat as well.

MP3 Audio Clip ( 11 min 20 sec ) by David Shaffer

147:12:12 Irwin: Joe, let's see you want 2 and 5 on the hand tool carrier, and the rest under the seat, is that correct?

147:12:19 Allen: That's correct.

147:12:22 Scott: Okay, stand by.

147:12:25 Allen: And, Dave, we do want you to unload the tools. Clip 'em them back on the Hand Tool Carrier. We'll need them later at the ALSEP site, perhaps.

147:12:39 Scott: Rog, Joe.

147:12:40 Irwin: Bend over a little, Dave.

147:12:41 Scott: Okay.

147:12:43 Irwin: I'd like to take this little cargo here, and take it right over to the MESA.

147:12:47 Scott: What bag number is it?

147:12:48 Irwin: Well, that's the bag that goes in...(It's) bag 5. And bag 5 goes in the SRC.

147:12:55 Scott: Yeah.

[Jim is probably reading EVA-2 checklist page LMP-21.]

147:13:13 Scott: Yeah, there's no sense in putting bag 5 on the hand-tool carrier, Joe, because it's just about full. Why don't we put it on the MESA or in the SRC, or something.

147:13:28 Irwin: Dave, when you take your camera off, just leave it on my (Rover) seat.

147:13:31 Allen: Dave, the only problem is, if we're able to get the deep (core) samples using the drill stems, we'd like them in the SRC. I guess we'll leave it up to you, your choice. It may be better just to take bag 5 over there right now and forego that little nicety.

147:13:49 Scott: Well, Joe, you didn't...Just a minute, Jim. Just a minute. Now, Joe, you didn't say anything about getting deep cores. That's why...(To Jim) Here, let's take 3 and put it over there. Keep it there. Let me take 2 back, because now that I know that they want to try and get the deep cores, we do need bag 2.

147:14:07 Irwin: Yeah.

147:14:08 Scott: That's the first time anybody said anything about that.

147:14:13 Irwin: That's bag 5, Dave.

147:14:16 Scott: I mean 5...

147:14:17 Irwin: Well, Dave, why not leave 5 there!

147:14:19 Scott: Okay.

147:14:20 Irwin: If you get the cores, bring them back, and we'll put it in there. I just won't load it in the SRC.

147:14:25 Scott: We'll hold the SRC open.

147:14:26 Irwin: Yeah, that's right.

147:14:27 Scott: Yeah. Okay.

147:14:28 Irwin: I'll hold it open.

147:14:29 Scott: Okay.

147:14:30 Allen: Sounds good, Jimmy.

[Obviously, Dave and Jim are well versed in the contents of the various bags.]

[Scott - "What they should probably say is, 'Here's the plan at the LM: want to get the deep core, want to move bags', and then let us go do it, 'cause we're probably more familiar with the bags and what's in 'em. For instance, one bag is almost full, and they don't know that. So, what they should have done was give us the objectives and then let us tell them what we did, 'cause then we can shuffle things around and, as long as they know what we did, they're in good shape."]

[Jones - "During the missions, in general, situations like this went smoothly when everything was going according to plan. But when there were deviations - like this situation or on 17 when procedures were altered at the start of EVA-2 because of the fender fix and a mistake that Jack made with the SCBs - things could get out of whack."]

[Scott - "What they should do in those cases is just tell the crew what the major objectives are and let the crews - who are more familiar with this, anyway - decide on the details...Now you've got a bunch of guys in the Backroom trying to shuffle bags, and they don't know what's in the bags 'cause we've collected the rocks. But if they say, 'the major objectives are: stow the bags that are full, put the other bags where you can get to them later, you may need your tools at the ALSEP, you're going to get deep cores. Go to it, guys! And then tell us what you did.' That would save a lot of this exchange and a lot of confusion because there's a lot of gear, obviously, and a lot of people in the loop back at the control center who are taking time discussing all this stuff, when it's probably not all that significant. We're gonna make sure we have enough bags to put new stuff in, because that's our interest. And we're also gonna make sure that we stow the bags that are full. Unless we drop one, or forget one. I think the role of the Backroom and the Control Center, in these situations, is to monitor and listen and pick up the mistakes we make, rather than trying to drive a complex system with many interfaces."]

147:14:38 Irwin: Yeah.

147:14:39 Scott: ...right here, on the MESA, huh?

147:14:41 Irwin: No, just hand it to me now. I'll take it right here.

147:14:43 Scott: Okay.

147:14:44 Irwin: I'll put it on.

147:14:45 Scott: There you go.

147:14:46 Irwin: Let me read it.

147:14:47 Scott: Yes, let me read the numbers on it first. Of course, it's not on all the way, but it's reading 89. (Pause) Get that, Joe? My camera, 89?

147:15:02 Allen: Got it, Dave, thank you.

147:15:03 Irwin: Dave, you're hung up on that strap. (Pause)

147:15:09 Scott: Okay. Thanks, Jim. (Pause) Okay. Now.

147:15:21 Irwin: Listen, why don't you take my tools off.

147:15:23 Scott: Yeah. That's a good idea. Get cleaned up here. (Pause)

147:15:34 Irwin: I think we only have two bags to go up (into the cabin) this time.

147:15:39 Scott: Yeah. Here's your hammer. (Pause)

147:15:52 Scott: Okay. Here's the rammer.

147:15:54 Irwin: Okay. (Pause)

147:16:00 Scott: Core tube caps.

147:16:05 Irwin: Okay.

147:16:08 Scott: Tidy up your Velcro. (Pause)

147:16:13 Irwin: Let me check yours again, Dave.

147:16:15 Scott: Okay.

147:16:16 Irwin: I don't recall that I tidied yours. Okay; when you get in, your right side is loose. So be careful.

147:16:21 Irwin: Okay. (Pause) Okay. You're tidy.

147:16:30 Scott: Okay. Right side okay?

147:16:33 Irwin: Yeah.

147:16:34 Scott: Okay.

147:16:36 Irwin: Put these core tube caps under the seat. We got more core tube caps now than we know what to do with.

147:16:41 Scott: Yeah.

147:16:43 Irwin: Listen, those rocks that are under the seat. I'll put those in bag...Well, the bag that's under there, before you drive off.

147:16:51 Scott: No, there isn't any bag under there now. I got it right here. It's 7.

147:16:54 Irwin: No, here's a bag right here. Right, or is that the sam(ple)...

147:16:56 Scott: No.

147:16:57 Irwin: ...sample bag? That's your sample bag.

147:16:58 Scott: Okay, here's a bag here, 6.

147:16:59 Irwin: You're going to use that one out there, right?

147:17:01 Scott: I don't know. Where do you want bag 7, Joe?

147:17:04 Allen: Bag 7 stays there, Dave. Leave it there.

147:17:09 Scott: Hey, where's "there"? Under the seat?

147:17:11 Allen: Is it under the seat? I think it's under the seat, and I think it's the bag for the next EVA. Keep it there.

147:17:18 Scott: Okay! It is. I think it is, yeah.

147:17:21 Irwin: Yeah, that's one for the next EVA.

147:17:22 Scott: Okay. It's under the seat.

147:17:24 Irwin: I was going to get those rocks and put it in this bag. Bag 6.

147:17:28 Scott: Okay. (Pause) Can you get the bag?

147:17:34 Irwin: Yeah.

147:17:38 Scott: My arms are a little longer, maybe I can reach it, Jim. That a boy. Okay.

147:17:45 Irwin: I don't want to leave any rocks there.

147:17:48 Scott: You're right. (Pause) Okay. (Pause) Is that the only one, or do we have another one? (Pause) It's the only one.

[This is probably the large sample Dave broke off the Station 4 boulder.]

[Neither Dave nor I could figure out what this means.]

147:18:20 Irwin: I'll just hold up on the SRC closing until...

147:18:23 Scott: Yeah.

147:18:25 Irwin: ...you decide what you're going to do out there.

147:18:27 Allen: Sounds good, Jim.

147:18:28 Irwin: There's a couple of samples there we probably ought to put in here.

147:18:30 Scott: Yep. (Pause)

147:18:34 Allen: Sounds good, and, Jim, while you're working there, once again...

147:18:37 Irwin: Anything else in there?

147:18:38 Allen: ...we want you to get your LM site pans...

147:18:41 Irwin: Okay.

147:18:42 Allen: ...pictures of the descent engine and solar wind composition pictures, and then I'll be back at you with the next job. And, Dave, standing by for when you're ready. And, I'll talk about your task coming up here.

147:18:56 Scott: Okay, Joe. Are you through with the Hand Tool Carrier, Jim?

147:18:59 Irwin: Yeah, I am, Dave.

147:19:00 Scott: Okay. I'm going to tidy up the Rover. (Long Pause)

147:19:17 Irwin: Okay, Joe, back at the...On the MESA, I have bags 3, 5, and 6.

147:19:25 Allen: Roger; copy, Jim. We'll get them later.

147:19:33 Scott: And, Joe, I'm on the Rover and ready to go.

147:19:36 Allen: Okay, Dave. We want you to park east of the ALSEP heading toward the west, and as far east as is comfortable for you. Once again with the dust problem in mind. And we want you to clean the TV camera and LCRU before you leave the Rover.

147:19:57 Scott: Okay. Park east heading west. And, I'll just get it fairly close to the Central Station and avoid the dust. How does that sound?

147:20:10 Allen: Roger. Just don't drive too far west. Keep it east, if you could, please.

[Houston probably wants the TV pointing down-Sun to get good lighting but, as Joe indicates at 147:21:29, they are primarily concerned about getting dust on the experiments.]

147:20:28 Allen: Ain't it, though. (Pause) And, Dave, as you climb off there and get the TV set and are ready, I'll talk to you about the next drilling job.

147:20:50 Scott: All righty. (Long Pause) Okay, I'm going to park right here. And if you get bored (watching the drilling), there's a big chunk of dark-gray breccia with white clasts right in front of the left wheel. Have fun looking at that, maybe.

147:21:29 Allen: Okay, Dave...

147:21:30 Scott: Brake's on, power's off.

147:21:31 Allen: ...we know you're not too close to the heat flow experiment holes now. We do want you to be particularly aware of the SIDE which has had its dust cover pulled off of it, too. So it'll be particularly sensitive to dust. And, when you are ready, once again, I've got words on how this drill should work.

147:21:51 Scott: Okay, first you want me to dust off your TV. Is that right?

147:21:55 Allen: Yes, sir, please. And the LCRU.

147:22:00 Scott: Alright, you broke up, Joe, I...

147:22:03 Allen: Roger, Dave...

147:22:04 Scott: Do you want your TV lens dusted off?

147:22:05 Allen: ...dust off the TV and the LCRU, please.

147:22:11 Scott: Roger. TV, I understand that, but do you want the TV lens, because we have a (cooling) mirror (on the top of the TV camera) we can dust off and we also have a lens we can dust off.

147:22:18 Allen: Yes, sir, both the camera and the lens, please.

147:22:24 Scott: All righty. It takes a couple different brushes. I hate to put this big brush on that lens.

147:22:32 Allen: You read it correctly. (Long Pause)

147:23:24 Scott: There. Your eye is all cleaned off. (Pause)

147:23:31 Allen: Okay, Dave, we're standing by for TV turn on.

147:23:38 Scott: Okay. Put the brush back in its proper place. (Pause) And, I'll go TV remote. (Pause) And I'll try and point the antenna. (Pause) Again, not a very good position. East (garbled) up all day today. (Pause)

[Dave has to stand in front of the Rover and, with the Rover pointed west, he is looking east, into the Sun.]

[Jones - "Was there any fiddling during training or during the development of the vehicle on how that sighting instrument was going to be set up?"]

[Scott - "Not specifically. I don't remember it was a particularly big deal. I mean, we practiced with it, but I don't remember any particular problems."]

[Jones - "Practiced with it suited?"]

[Scott - "Yeah. But probably not in the same Rover orientation, relative to where the Earth would be. Sort of a second order problem. I mean, if the Rover's pointed in the right direction, then it's easy to bend over and look at it. If the Rover isn't, then it's hard."]

[Jones - "Let's see. With the one-g trainer, they didn't actually use that antenna for comm but, rather, used a regular old antenna. But did you play with the Rover high-gain?"]

[Scott - "We played with that. But I don't remember whether we ever simulated different Earth angles - Earth locations relative to the Rover angle."]