If you’re fascinated by the idea of humans traveling through space and curious about how that all works, you’ve come to the right place.

“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center from Houston, Texas, home for NASA’s astronauts and Mission Control Center. Listen to the brightest minds of America’s space agency – astronauts, engineers, scientists and program leaders – discuss exciting topics in engineering, science and technology, sharing their personal stories and expertise on every aspect of human spaceflight. Learn more about how the work being done will help send humans forward to the Moon and on to Mars in the Artemis program.

Women Excelling in Life & Leadership (WELL) and the Human Systems Integration ERG hosted a panel discussion highlighting the legacy of women in spaceflight with panelists who worked at NASA during Apollo and current employees who carry on that legacy today. This panel discussion was recorded on August 26th, 2019.

Transcript

Pat Ryan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center. Episode 109, “Women of JSC: Apollo to Artemis.” I’m Pat Ryan. And I’m joined in introducing today’s podcast by Jessica Vos, a name and voice that long-time listeners may recall. Jessica is an Orion spacecraft crew systems engineer who talked with Gary Jordan back on Episode 28 about how the new Orion spaceship is designed to accommodate its human crew members for missions into deep space. She’s also the current chair of the Women Excelling in Life and Leadership Employee Resource Group. More commonly known here on site at JSC at WELL. Jessica, welcome back.

Jessica Vos: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here in this different capacity this time.

Host: All right, let’s set the stage. Because I want people to understand what is WELL, your organization? What does it do here at JSC?

Jessica Vos: Absolutely. So at JSC we are really lucky in that our leadership truly believes that employees are our greatest asset. Mainly because of the fact that their diverse experiences backgrounds and skills that they each bring to work every day are truly what make us competitive and successful. Especially in this type of industry. So at JSC we have nine employee resource groups.

Host: Nine.

Jessica Vos: Which is quite a few, yeah. We have nine. And they’re all a part of the Inclusion and Innovation Council Initiative, the I&I Council Initiative. And what’s really awesome is that the leadership is all made up of employee volunteers. This is a side job for everybody.

Host: Okay.

Jessica Vos: And a side job that we don’t get paid for. And rarely thanked for honestly.

Host: Oh, come on.

Jessica Vos: But they do incredible work. Including things like this panel. In general, all the ERGs provide augmented support to the existing management tools and HR systems that are already in place for recruiting and onboarding. Knowledge sharing. Workforce engagement. And employer retention. But we do it that are in ways that are specific to the needs of our membership, the ERG membership.

Host: Okay.

Jessica Vos: So we really want to enable each and every individual employee to be able to bring their authentic selves to work every day and uniquely contribute to the agency’s mission.

Host: Now, in a minute here we’re going to let people hear a panel presentation that WELL organized. What’s the goal in having this event?

Jessica Vos: So you may have been a part of, long-time listeners as you mentioned earlier. You may be familiar with the fact that this year has been really exciting for NASA. There’s a couple of things; right?

Host: Yeah.

Jessica Vos: That are huge accomplishments that we’re celebrating.

Host: There’s something about Apollo.

Jessica Vos: Yeah, something like landing, moon, lunar landing thing. So, yeah, it’s been really incredible. And we are doing this as a part of the 50th anniversary events of Apollo 11. And we also wanted to focus on the fact that along with that announcement or along with that celebration, there’s been an announcement that we’re going back to the moon.

Host: Right.

Jessica Vos: In 2024 with the Artemis mission. So we really want, we are excited about being able to continue the human exploration of deep space in a different way. A more sustainable way. And we realize that that’s going to look different and feel different. And require a lot of different methods and technologies than what we had in Apollo. So we thought it would be really neat to have a panel that kind of highlights the legacy of women here at JSC. And how they supported the Apollo program. And how they’re currently supporting Artemis and human space flight in general. So this panel is going to touch on one of the main objectives of the I&I Council. Which is really to inspire the next generation and promote the agency’s mission. So as we were saying, the incredible accomplishments of the Apollo program were fuelled by the extraordinary efforts of multiple teams of people learning and creating brand new ways to solve problems that had never been approached, right, let alone solved before. So in many ways the team supporting Artemis are in the same boat. Because while the overall goal of getting to the moon is the same as Apollo, the means and objectives of Artemis are quite different. Along with things like the political climate. The international partner engagement. Budgetary constraints. All of the, you know, the whole context in which we’re accomplishing this goal now is very different. And for this panel specifically, taking place intentionally on women’s equality day, August 26th.

Host: Okay.

Jessica Vos: We wanted to highlight the legacy of women at JSC who supported the Apollo program side by side with the perspectives of the women currently supporting the efforts to advance our ability to achieve future human space flight missions.

Host: Okay, would you do the honors then. Introduce us to the ladies that we’re going to hear in the presentation coming up momentarily.

Jessica Vos: Absolutely. So today we’re thrilled to have an incredible group of women who bring a really diverse suite of experts, sorry, expertise and experiences to the table. And I’ll start off with a very dear friend of mine Dr. Jennifer Rochlis. She is the panel moderator. She brings over 20 years of experience to the table. And has supported many different organizations here on site at JSC. Including the Engineering Directorate, human resources and the Human Health and Performance Directorate. We’re also super lucky because she has authored publications and book chapters in the areas of human factors engineering and human systems integration design. Including NASA’s very own HSI, Human Systems Integration practitioners guide. She’s also the founder and former chair of the HSI ERG who we’re co-hosting this event with.

Host: Oh, okay.

Jessica Vos: So she’s going to do an incredible job as moderator. We also have, for the first panelist from the Apollo era, is Mary Dunseith Henry. She has served, worked on site through Apollo 7 through Apollo 17. From Apollo 7 through Apollo 17. And she, I’m not going to give it away here. But she has an incredible story to tell that you probably know that includes Apollo 11.

Host: Yeah.

Jessica Vos: Right? And she has a really fun story to tell there. But she supported as a administrative specialist and external relations employee in that time. We also have Dianne Milner who supported here in the Apollo era and still currently works here today.

Host: Oh.

Jessica Vos: She started here back in Mercury.

Host: Goodness.

Jessica Vos: So she may be the longest employee, like, longest employee here.

Host: Badge number two.

Jessica Vos: Yeah, exactly. So we’re sure that she’s going to have quite a neat perspective to share just from having crossed that many different programs and been here that long. She’s really truly seen the highs and lows that NASA has experienced in all of our programs; right? So that will be incredible to hear from her. And then the third Apollo era guest that we have or panelist that west is Estella Hernandez-Gillette. She was supporting the Apollo program as a stenographer and clerk for the engineering directorate. She started in 1964. And she supported, sorry, she was employed here at JSC for 42 years. She’s now a professor down at University of Houston. So local. And she also served as the EO director, the equal opportunity office director here at —

Host: Right.

Jessica Vos: JSC for ten years. And then she, when she retired in 2006, she was serving as the deputy of external relations. So very interesting.

Host: Yeah.

Jessica Vos: Background there. And then we have two current panelists, meaning, as in they work here at JSC Today.

Host: Now.

Jessica Vos: And maybe a little bit younger as well. The first one is Dr. Sarah Wallace. She’s a microbiologist. And she is the technical lead in our microbiology laboratory here on site. You may recall here name. She, has she done a podcast with you before?

Host: She did. She talked about the genes in space experiment.

Jessica Vos: Right.

Host: Where they identified microbes from start to finish without knowing what they were —

Jessica Vos: Right, DNA sequencing.

Host: In space for the first time.

Jessica Vos: Yeah, so she’ll have, she has quite a bit of involvement in how it is that we are mitigating some of those risks for future space flight. Both to moon and beyond.

Host: Right.

Jessica Vos: Hopefully Mars; right? So it will be awesome to hear from her. And then the last panelist will be Miss Ashley White. She is an equal opportunity specialist here at JSC. She has also served as an accountant in JSC’s travel office. And a human resource representative in the human resource office. So she has had a few different supporting orgs as well. And she, in general, has a lot of experience working with and supporting the women here at JSC. Both through our ERGs and otherwise. So, yeah, it’s going to be a really awesome panel.

Host: All right then, “Women of JSC: Apollo to Artemis.” Here we go.

[ Music ]

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Okay, you guys ready to get started? Okay, Mary, I would love to start with you. Can you tell us what JSC was like when you first got here. And walk us through some of your first day at work.

Mary Dunseith Henry: Well, what JSC was like when I first got here was as exciting as the day that I left. I had come in from, I was working for the Air Force. And because of the Vietnam War my family wanted me back in Houston. So I was transferring from Macon, Georgia. Warner Robins Air Force Base to Ellington Field. But when I got to Ellington to interview, they had a freeze on. And so the young lady at human resources said, you can go to this organization down the road. We don’t think it will be here long. But once our freeze is over, you can come back. So I went down the road and was fortunate enough to be hired. And never went back to the Air Force. It was an exciting time. We were a family. There was a large group, but a small group really in comparison to what was going on at the time. And I came right after the fire. So there was lot of mixed emotions going on at that time. And a lot of “we can do” going on at that time. And whether you were a secretary. An engineer. An admin. Or the telephone guy. Or the cafeteria. You were all part of a family. And it was a terrific family so.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you. [Inaudible] Hello. Got it, okay. Did I get yours, Dianne? You want to check it?

Dianne Milner: Hello.

Jessica Vos: Okay, good. Because I’m going to toss this to you real quickly because Dianne just told us the story of her first day on site. And I thought that was something worth sharing as well.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: I thought I was in prison. I went to the Rich Building that first summer that I worked here. And I didn’t have my interim secret clearance yet. So I had to be escorted from the lobby to my desk. And then each trip to the bathroom, she was like a matron, you know, out of, right out of a prison. Would escort me down and wait and then escort me back. So but after that, you know, I got my interim secret clearance. I was all over the warehouse. The lab. Met people. Met my future husband. So I made the best of it after that. It was not a prison any longer.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Ashley, can you tell us a little bit about what brought to you NASA and how you got into the industry?

Ashley White: Sure. Thank you for the opportunity to be on this panel with these illustrious women. So my story is a little different. Back in 2002, I was a sophomore at Prairie View A&M University. And we were having a career fair. And I will never forget it. We were walking around the Baby Dome. That’s where the career fair was. And your feet are hurting because you’re wearing shoes that you’re not used to wearing. And I see the NASA booth. And I go, oh, there’s no way, I was an accounting major. They don’t want me. That’s not for me. But my mother said apply for every opportunity. But nobody was at the table. They had already gone to lunch. So I may or may not have put my resume at the very top of the pile. And I may or may not have stood there for a while and made sure that my resume kept going to the top of the pile. And then I just walked away. Two weeks later I got a call from Anne Roemer saying, hey, would you be interested in a co-op opportunity. And I thought, at NASA? You, like, for, I’m not an engineer. Let me just really make that clear. No, no, no, we have business co-ops. Okay. Two weeks later we were on site. My grandparents had brought me here. But I may have forgotten my license at campus. So, you know, you can’t get on site. So I had my interview in Building 110 in one of those back conference rooms. And I started that next week in January 2003. And this is the only company I’ve ever worked for.

[ Applause ]

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Sarah, I want to ask you a question about your org. And we’re going to talk about your work a little bit later. But a lot of times, when we do lessons learned, we focus on what should we do better? And I really like to highlight for sure the things that we’re already doing really well. That we want to keep doing really well. And so I want Sarah to talk a little bit about what she feels like in her discipline and her org, what are we doing really well in your mind that we need to keep doing? And that we, others should know?

Dr. Sarah Wallace: Yeah, am I on?

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: You’re on.

Dr. Sarah Wallace: All right. So I think that the things we are doing really well is we’re, as new folks come in and, you know, we reach out. And we’re really starting to work well across organizations. So a lot of the work I have done, I’m within human health and performance. But I’ve actually been with Astromaterials Research. So across orgs we’re really working together. And then another thing we’re trying to really do, and I think NASA’s doing a great job of this is really communicating to the public what we’re doing. So using social media. Using things to really communicate the great things going on here at NASA. All the way from the science to the engineering to the missions. So putting a lot of focus, not just on astronauts, which is so cool. But focus on the stuff we’re doing here every day in our labs and in our meetings and various things. It may not be as fun, but we’re making that exciting. And we’re communicating it to the public. So I see a lot of collaboration going on. A lot of communication. Things that have definitely, I think, gotten so much stronger since I’ve been here.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you. Estella, like to know what advice you have for women here at NASA.

Estella Hernandez-Gillette: I’m sorry?

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: What advice you have for women here at NASA. Some advice you have for women here.

Estella Hernandez-Gillette: Sorry.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: No, no.

Estella Hernandez-Gillette: I’m wearing hearing aids. Can anybody tell? Part of the perils of getting older. Advice for women. Get to know your organizations. Get to know where you are in the organization. And get to know anybody that wants to mentor you. I think it’s still a day when we need, everybody needs a mentor. But I think seriously for women, we’re still looking for role models and samples of what we want to become. And back in my day, in 1964 when I came here, that was really tough do. Now you have them all around you. I think there’s lots of opportunities at NASA, the Johnson Space Center. I can’t tell you what a great product I was for opportunity. Just look around you. Look for the opportunity. Get as prepared as you can. Get as many practice opportunities as you can. It’s nice to do your job all the time. But give yourself a small percentage of time to go do other things that are other than your job. I think groups like the ERGs, things that are relevant to the Johnson Space Center and to the kind of work that we do, get involved with those. It’s great to do a great job. But those involvements will also help you do a better job.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you for that. Dianne, I want to turn to you next. You arrived here sort of the end of the Mercury program. And been here through Gemini. And Apollo. Shuttle. ISS. A really distinguished career. An amazing body of work. You also have seen and experienced a significant number of highs and lows in your time here. Obviously some of the great highs of the Apollo landing and return. And shuttle flights. Also some significant lows in the Apollo 1 fire. And the Challenger and Columbia accidents. When you reflect back on that, can you talk about how you feel that those have really impacted the culture here at JSC. And I’d also like to hear about how you feel like they impacted you personally.

Dianne Milner: Actually, of course, starting back with, I came at the end of Mercury. So, of course, we had never put a human on a booster into space. So that was a stepping stone. We came to Gemini and, gosh, what we learned from Gemini almost losing a vehicle. But attitude control and the, we learned we needed to learn EVA skills. So we came back here and built pools to teach the astronauts. But then the Apollo 1 fire I think was most devastating to me because it was a realization that we can lose precious crew in a flight test on the pad. And not in orbit, you know. So that came home. There was so many things that had to be redone on the command module then. I was told it was almost redesigned. Specifically, no, but no one knew we couldn’t use pure oxygen. So then, as we go on, we’re learning from our mistakes. We didn’t have a lot to work with. If you can imagine no computers. No e-mails. And nothing but short of slide rules and maybe there was a mainframe computer that would now be the size of what’s on your desk now. But as we came on, we had, again, lots of success through the station and the shuttle program. And then we had to learn what, you know, we learned on Challenger. So as far as the culture, we went on. We moved on, but we learned. At the precious loss of lives, but we did learn.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Glad to hear that. Mary, also you have seen an amazing amount as well. You were working in the SPAN Room. Which is the spacecraft analysis room for those of you who don’t know in the Apollo program mission control office. And you were here from Apollo 7 through 11. Can you talk about some of your most memorable experiences from that time. And I know you mentioned getting here right after Apollo 1. So there was probably quite a change in the pace and things to through that time.

Mary Dunseith Henry: Change in pace.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Well, that as well from, you know, beginning to the end of the Apollo program. And just whatever memorable experiences you’d like to highlight for us in that time for you.

Mary Dunseith Henry: Okay. And just a small correction. When I came on board, I was, got a position in Dave Lang’s directorate, which was Procurement. But then I was assigned to the Apollo program office to work the SPAN Room during missions. Which was very, very exciting. Because you work during the day. You got off at 5:00, and you reported about 6:00. And you got off about 2:00. And then you reported at 8:30 again in the morning. But the most memorable of all of the missions that I did help support would be Apollo 11. When it was kind of new with the president talking to, whoever the president was at the time. Talking from the control center to the astronauts once they were wherever they were. And with 11, when they landed on the moon, of course, President Nixon was our president at that time. And the SPAN Room is a small room off of the control center where a lot of anomalies are taking place. Engineers are in there. Different staff members. And I was the secretarial support for that area at that time. And everybody had gone because, of course, we had landed. And they were waiting for, you know, the first step and that sort of thing. So I was by myself in the SPAN Room. And the phone rang. And when I answered it appropriately like you should, this gentleman was very excited. And said he had to get into the control center. That his calls were not going through. And wanted to know if I knew of some way that he could do that. And so I asked him his name as we would as secretaries. And he said, I’m the president. And I said, yes, sir, but of which company are you the president? So that kind of traveled real quick. When I, and there was nobody there. So I had to put him on hold. So I said, could you please hold a moment, and I will find out what we need to do. So when I came out of the SPAN Room and the control center at that time had little alleyways, I guess, that were going. And at the very end where people couldn’t get in was all of the news media. So it came out, secretary puts president on hold. So we get into the control center, and I get him transferred. And all of that was really, really good and became very exciting. And everything went well. Just like what they were mentioning. And with every launch there is that anticipation. Because of what had happened before that we were vulnerable in some ways. But we had the best of the best working on everything. And the next thing would have been Apollo 13. And when you, you’ve all seen the movie, I’m sure. You’ve all been part of that whole experience. My husband was Lynn Dunseith. And he was director over computer systems at that time. And when all of that came about where they showed the going into the back room or side room. And saying this is what they have in the LEM. How are we going to get them home? And so that was exciting for my children to know that dad new how all of that happened. Now, we have five children. And they learned more about Lynn at his funeral than they ever knew when he was alive. Because engineers, they didn’t talk about their job. They were top secret situations. And so they knew he worked at NASA. They knew they could come on a tour. But that was exciting for all of us. And I was so glad to get to experience all of that. And then ending with, I stayed on after Apollo. But the, ending with Gene Cernan’s flight was a big one for me. He was such a personal, all the astronauts were personal and kind to us. But, you know, sometimes you just kind of get with somebody that you can really sit and talk. Have coffee or do whatever. And not feel that you, you’re not, that you should be staunch so.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Can you say a little more, Mary, about what it was like to be a woman in the mission control oort cloud at the time running around.

Mary Dunseith Henry: Well, being a woman in mission control for me was pretty exciting. I’m a woman who likes doors opened. I like being treated respectfully. And I like, I appreciated my, whatever you would call it, if you would call it my place. I was a secretary. Very proud secretary. I wouldn’t mind if I served you coffee or a Estella coffee or anybody else in this room coffee. But we had a job to do, and we knew what we needed to do. And it was exciting. And I probably could have gone further in my career. All of my friends did. Estella was a secretary with me. Several of these ladies on this front row were secretaries with me. But I chose to go home and raise children. And so all of it’s been great. And God put us where we needed to be, and he’s been blessing us ever since.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you for that. Speaking of Estella, I’d like to know how you feel the work of equal opportunity has changed? And I’d love to hear about how it changed throughout your career as the director of the office when you were here.

Estella Hernandez-Gillette: You know, equal opportunity came about legally through affirmative action laws and all of that. But here at Johnson, we could see the movement already beginning. Now, most of us who were female were secretaries. I can count on one hand how many technical women there were. And recently Teresa Sullivan and I had an experience where “LA Times” was looking to interview technical women of Apollo era. And I think we found one, okay. There were others, but that we had tracked, we found one. On the other hand, we had the 60s chicks. And I’d like to ask them to stand please. Those of you who were part of our 60s chicks.

[ Applause ]

These were, we were all women who were supporting the program. And like Mary said, we were doing whatever it took to do. Nobody asked questions. We just did it. And I tell you what, we were very good at what we did. So, you know, whatever you do, just be good at it. But as far as equal opportunity, you know, through my 40 years at the Johnson Space Center, I saw the movement get wider and wider and wider. And it came about mostly because now we had women for the technical side of JSC here. We had women who were going to college to get degrees, STEM-related degrees, okay. Early on there were not that many women going into STEM degrees. And I know that NASA and lots of other industry were very much involved with making sure that we had that reach out to the community. To make sure that women were getting interested and going into STEM-related fields. Once that happened, and I was on the astronaut selection board in 1979, ’80. I can remember still we had just trickles of women who were qualified to become astronauts even then, okay. However, through the years, and I’ll make this an example with Eileen Collins. We were looking for, in the astronaut selection, we were looking for women pilots, okay. If anybody knows about the qualifications for pilot, you kind of have to go, you can’t rent a jet and go get that kind of practice, okay. So you kind of had to be in the test pilot school in the military, all right. So women were not allowed, until I think 1972, into test pilot school, okay. Eileen Collins was one of those who was allowed. And eventually a few years later she became our first female pilot astronaut, okay. That’s kind of how it was happening. At the Johnson Space Center, I could see that very, very well moving on. And that’s because I came here in 1964, when you can count the women in one hand who were technical. You could count the minorities on one hand who were at Johnson. And little by little we began to reach out to the community. I think 35 of my 40 years were part of, were involved in outreach. So now that I teach at the University of Houston and I look at my classrooms, I see that it worked. The outreach of other, not just NASA, but other communities going out there and making sure that we start at the bottom and start little kids getting interested. And not wait to the last minute and then wonder where we’re going to get qualified people. So I think the country has done a great job as far as making sure that we get people involved at the bottom in education. And then in the job market, you get, you know, when I was director of equal opportunity, we used something called the relevant civilian labor force to measure who, how many we should have in each category. And that worked because you kind of go to the population that can do the job here. And that’s where we draw from. You can’t draw from the general population because they don’t have the qualifications to do the kind of work that we do here. It’s a very, and I’m sure you’ve experienced this. But it seemed to be a more quantitative way of going out and looking for folks. Making sure that, number one, we were involved with the development of the people that we wanted to recruit here. And, number two, once they get here, make sure that we develop people constantly over and over, giving them practice. And that’s why I teach human resource development now. Because I think that is the way to do people, to get people qualified better. And to really be a part of the organization.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Yeah, I think that’s wonderful. Especially since onboarding is a really significant part of all of our employer resource group’s charters. Not only to bring folks on, but also to onboard them into what it’s like to be working here at the space center. And how we can help support them going forward. So following on what you said, Ashley, I’d love to hear also from you in your role with the equal opportunity diversity. Talk to us a little bit about how your role has really shaped what’s been going on here in the last few years. We now have inclusive innovation as part of our, you know, core tenets. And we’ve been doing so much work in that area. I’d love to know how you think going forward our workforce might need to adapt to what our challenges are coming at us with our new programs and everything else.

Ashley White: So this is an honor to share the stage. We see her picture in our office as a, literally every day. So when I walked in, I said, oh, hi. Because we are standing on the shoulders of such great work. So we are so appreciative. And this is the work that we are charged to continue to do. We look at the people, the policies and the procedure that are in place to make sure that it’s a workplace free of discrimination. Retaliation. And harassment. So one of those aspects that we’re doing to help is training. In fact, before I came here I was in the Gilruth talking to about 50 or 60 of our education interns. Making sure that they know what their rights and responsibilities are. Every year we do training through human resource management to managers so that everybody understands what their roles and responsibilities are. We take very seriously conflict resolution and mediation. Because unsolved conflict brews under the surface. And it becomes much more about than just that one thing. And it impacts and can really mess up an organization if it’s not handled at the lowest level. You already spoke about the great work that the ERGs are doing. Our role in our office is to give them the maximum support possible to help them dream bigger dreams. You want to go where? Okay, well, let’s figure out how we can do that. You want to do a panel? Okay, well, let’s see how, what resources that we have within our office to do so. But we focus on reasonable accommodations. That is huge to make sure every single employee here understands their worth. And that they are valued. They are opinions matter. And if they need some additional assistance, our office is here in coordination with the center to make sure they have the resources they need.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: So talk to us a little bit about the next few years. We’re going to have potentially a large ramp up in work. And deadlines. And what are some of the things that we need to be thinking about to support our workforce if we hire on, you know, a great deal more folks? Do we do temporary? Or however that looks. We’re going to need all hands on deck to get this done. Are there things that you think we need to be putting in place now to really support that? Or what are some things that you think ahead we should consider?

Ashley White: We must always remember our JSC expected behaviors. Because regardless of what the work is or the pace of the work. If we don’t respect one another. If we don’t have tenets of teamwork and loyalty and integrity. We won’t reach that next level. I think it’s very important that we are respective and respectful of age. We had an employee last week retire with 54 years of experience. But we also have employees here with less than six months. So making sure that it’s an equal playing field. That people feel like their opinions are valued. That they’re heard. And especially in a safety culture, if you’re like, well, no, I just got here. I can’t say anything. That doesn’t help us continue to improve. So I think, as we look ahead, making sure that we really use diversity and inclusion. Not just as tag words, but really tenets of who we stand for as JSC.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you so much for that. I agree wholeheartedly. And thinking on words to the future, I want to, Sarah, talk to you a little bit about your work. So you were part of the team that launched the first DNA sequencer to the ISS. Which is incredibly exciting. Congratulations. And that, also along with some of your other studies, have lead to the identification of some microbiomes that have been cultured off Earth. Which is also very exciting. So can you share with us the significance of your work. And also I’d love for you to tell us where you think the future of this work is headed. Especially as we try to get more Earth independent.

Dr. Sarah Wallace: Yeah, so I think that we, in the life sciences, we look at ISS as this incredible platform for research. And an opportunity for us to learn. And for so long we’ve kind of operated in this world of, you know, we grow, we expose whatever model organism or whatever it is to the conditions of space flight. And then we bring the samples back to Earth for analysis. So what the team I’m on and the work we’re doing is really to try to take really our labs and put them on ISS to give us the capability to do that analysis on board. And for me specifically as a micro biologist, we launched the DNA sequencer just to show that it would work. But then we really tried take it to the next level with, some of our routine work that we do is checking up on what the environment looks like microbially. And so actually having astronaut Peggy Whitson take some of these things that we routinely culture. Open them and identify them all on board the ISS. Which is a first. And we’ve never been able to do that. So we’re really excited just to show that capability that we have, you know, we can do this stuff on Earth. We don’t need to always fix or freeze a sample and bring it back. We can do it all in space. And I really think that this is going to be critical as we go forward. So as we look beyond ISS and we look towards exploration class missions, we need technologies that can give us real-time input on the environment that the crew’s exposed to. Crew health themselves. Every aspect of that. And so I really think that these technologies will be absolutely critical. And that’s the work we’re continuing to try to do is to take it even one step further. Make it even more simple. Go beyond microbes. We’ve started doing some human work. And looking at the way, you know, developing methods that we can use to maybe understand how astronauts are responding to different things. And so I think there’s a lot of potential. And I’m just, I’m really excited because I see the work that my colleagues are doing in similar areas. And I just think, in terms of the science, we’re getting back. And in terms of getting us ready to go beyond ISS, we’re really getting there. So which is a really exciting time. And I think it’s, we’re all eager. And we’re all excited to, those of us that weren’t around during Apollo. We’re all just so excited to be able to be a part of that as we go forward with Artemis. And, you know, we’re excited for our technologies and our methods to make an impact there. And I really think they will. And I think that we have a lot of good work still to do. But we’ve done a lot to really show that we have these capabilities now.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: So interestingly, in our world we talk a lot about astronaut health, as you said. And we have, you know, quarantine has always been something that after the Apollo missions was, you know, taken very seriously. And I know some of the conferences in the human health and performance world, lately we’ve been talking a lot about planetary and protection. And can you speak a little bit about how important that is as we’re learning more about areas in your field of study. What the responsibility is that we have as we go and explore. And kind of how we can really relate that back to plan those designs for that.

Dr. Sarah Wallace: Yeah, so within that kind of, within the realm of planetary protection, there’s always two things we’re worried about. And I would say, when we went to the moon the first time, we weren’t so, we weren’t as worried about contaminating the moon. We were worried about back-contaminating Earth. Which was why the quarantine of the astronauts over in the old building 37 was so important. Because, if there was some andromeda strain, we wanted to make sure we weren’t exposing, you know, population of Earth to this. So NASA took that very seriously. And so that’s, you know, there’s great stories. If you’re interested, find me later. I know them all. So it was a really exciting time. But now, as we look, we’re still always going to be worried about that, as we haven’t explored Mars and some of these other bodies. Enceladus. Europa. That, you know, many scientists are excited might harbor life. So really there’s those two aspects of, one, not bringing anything back. And, two, how much we’re contaminating it. We are walking microbiomes. We have all these bacteria that are associated with us. That, you know, we don’t want to, if there is life there, we don’t want to impact that life on that planet or moon. So really having the capability to get a good baseline to understand what we have in us and on us. What’s in and on our spacecraft vehicles. On the space suits. Every little aspect of this is really important to establish that baseline so we can understand what we are, you know, contributing potentially to another surface. And so that, you know, then, if we do find something, is that novel or is that something we put there? So, and, again, always monitoring what we’re bringing back with us. So those are the two big areas we’re concerned with. And we’re, with the technology we have now with the DNA sequencer and the methods we’ve developed, we’re really excited. We’re working with all of our international partners to really kind of form one method that we can all use to really start piecing all this together. So all of that’s in work. And I think the next few years are going to be really exciting as we have the technologies to both screen for life beyond Earth. And measure what we’re taking with us beyond Earth.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you. I appreciate that perspective of sort of the big picture of some reasons of why we go. And what we’re thinking of, you know, when we pick our head up and go where are we aiming for? What are we trying to accomplish? And to that end also, Dianne and I were talking earlier. I’d love to hear, Dianne, your thoughts. You alluded to sort of the, we talked a little bit about the pace of the work that was happening around the Apollo time. And we’re being tasked for the next four years to do something very similar. And, you know, the methods you mentioned were different than they are now. Can you talk about how you think we might be able to face that challenge of this quick turnaround. But you also have some great perspective on what the pace in life was like here beforehand.

Dianne Milner: Well, actually it was a very heated rush, pressure to get to the moon for Apollo 11. And the technologies that we had to work with back then were really primitive compared to what we have now. So I think personally going to the moon in 2024 is going to be a piece of cake. But realistically I think we have the technology. The brilliance in our community and workforce here to make sure it’s done right. And it’s going to be right before we go. We have certainly a deadline, but I don’t feel the pressure, unless it’s right, that we’ll go before then. But I think we’ll get there definitely. Maybe not exactly 2024, but close to it.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you for that. So I want to pause for a second and just remind that you in about five minutes we’re going to go to our Slido questions. So if haven’t already contributed and you would like to, please do that. And, Jessica, I’m just going to confirm with you, I’m going to do one more round. And then you’re going to toss it over to Slido for the, up to the end; right? So, okay, great. So I kind of wanted to go down the road this time, since we’ve got about five minutes before we throw it out to the audience. I would love to hear from each of you what nugget do you want to leave this audience with, this group? This group that’s really intent on learning from how we’ve done things and where we need to be going forward. What is any nugget that you would like to share with this group? Love to hear it? Mary, do you want to start us off?

Mary Dunseith Henry: Well, I guess what I’d like to say is for those of you who are still working here and those of you who are retired from here. It’s the greatest opportunity that we had or will have. We all touch somebody. And whether it’s mentoring a young person that’s on their way up. Just knowing that this is it. This is the greatest place to start your career and end your career here, if that need be. But the people that you meet, the mentors that you have. And I don’t believe there’s one NASA employee or past employee that you couldn’t reach out to if you had a question. We are all available. And we all want to go in the same direction. So that’s the nugget I would leave.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you. Ashley.

Ashley White: So the best piece of advice I got, I actually got recently. Couple years ago I was struggling with trying to balance work and caring for an ailing grandmother. And my manager said to me, be your best wherever you are. So if you’re at work, fully commitment to being at work. If you’re in the hospital, fully commitment to caring for her. And that’s freed me from trying to be everything to every person at all times. And I wasn’t giving anybody my best. So if I could give you what was given to me, be your best wherever you are. And if that means, excuse me, having to have a pep rally of one before a meeting. If that means sitting in your car and getting your mind right before you walk into work. Do whatever it is that you need to do to make sure you’re your best wherever you are.

Estella Hernandez-Gillette: Dang, that’s a tough one. Because I have so much advice I could give you guys. So much. Yeah, lots. But I think, you know, and I go back to 1964. When I came in 1964, it was October 19th, 1964. Memorable day for me. The Johnson Space Center the Manned Spacecraft Center had just opened the gates. So there were a few buildings. It was me coming here and saying, oh, my God, what have I done? Because, when I applied for the government service and I passed, this was just a few months after I became a naturalized citizen. Because I was born in Mexico. And I passed a civil service exam. And I came here. I had three interviews. And I went home and told my mom and my dad that I had a job offer. In fact, I had three job offers. And my mom and dad said, you’re not going there. I said, why not? It’s too far to drive. You’re not going there. Because we lived on the other side of the Pierce Elevated now. And my, and I said, yes, I am. And, you know, Mexican culture, very, very strict. And that was a very rebellious thing for me to do is to say, yes, I am. And my mom says, you don’t have a car. I said, I’ll buy one. So I bought a car. I was here. Three months later my dad talked about me as if I owned the Johnson – or the Manned Spacecraft Center. He was so proud. He was so proud. But coming here was so scary. Because there weren’t a lot of people that looked like me. And I wasn’t even really conscious of that. It was just that it was mostly white men. And they were mostly wearing white shirts with black ties and pocket protectors. They really did wear those, okay. And, but what I found was that, because I was good at what I was supposed to be doing, they all thought I was great. And because I started as a secretary and I got my training in high school, Jeff Davis High School here in town. They thought, the guys that I worked with, there were 21 of them. And it was Building 13, Structures and Mechanics Division in Building, yeah, 13. They thought I was fascinating because I could type 98 words a minute, okay. I could take shorthand at 80 words a minute, you know. And I think a lot of us could do that in that time, okay. So I think the best advice I can give you is do the job you’re supposed to be doing and do the best at it. And in the meantime pick up some additional skills for the next job that you’re going to. But I met a few people along the way who aspired for other things, but they weren’t really doing what they were supposed to be doing already. So my advice is look at your job description. What are you supposed to be doing? I mentioned the mentoring already. You mentioned respect and dignity. Those go a long way. So I think this is a wonderful home. Like Mary says, and I think all of us would agree here, it’s a wonderful place to work. If somebody had told me in 1963, when I graduated from high school, that I was going to make a career out of here. I would have said, NASA, what’s that? Because I did not know what NASA was until my yearbook featured the original seven astronauts. And then I knew what NASA was. And I made it home here. It’s like a family. Mary mentioned the family a few times. It is a family. Find out who the members are. Find out what works and what doesn’t work. Look at the people around you. What do they do? Who do you want to become like? You have so many goods examples. There’s historical examples. There’s current examples. And I marvel at this young lady [indicates Sarah Wallace] and what she’s doing. I wish I had done that. So I really could go on and on about all the wonderful things here. But just enjoy what you do. And consider yourself privileged because you really are.

Dr. Sarah Wallace: Well, that’s hard to follow. But I just want to build on what Estella said. It’s the, if you have passion, and anyone who knows me knows I, absolutely incredibly passionate about what I do. But it’s, don’t take no for an answer. It’s, I have been told no so many times about an idea. Or, you know, something simple to something big. But I don’t let that stop me. And you just, if you have an idea that you really believe in. And you’re really passionate about. And you really see the benefit. Just keep pushing. And, you know, there’s been times I’ve been concerned is it my age? Is it the way I look? What is it that I’m, you know, being told no about? And you don’t stop to where then, you know, you, I feel like our work now is having a huge impact. And what we’re doing is really causing change. And that’s so great. Because I look back to a couple years ago, and it was just like dead end after dead end. So just don’t stop. If you’re passionate, just keep going. And somebody will finally, you know, you’ll get somebody to kind of buy into what you’re saying. And hopefully, you know, we can all continue to move mountains and get us closer to our next goal.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Love that. Thank you. Dianne, you want to bring us home?

Dianne Milner: Yes. I was just thinking out at Rice Stadium there’s a big billboard that says, be the best that you can be. And I think that more or less sums it up. If you’re bored, if you’re not interested, change jobs. Find something else. But be happy with what you’re doing. Be involved with others that you’re working with. And you have a challenge out there to satisfy yourself and be successful. Follow that dream, that hope, and you will be.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you. That’s a beautiful way to end. Thank you so much for all of your participation. I think we’re going to throw it back over to our moderators to do the questions. So let me just give you all a round of applause from myself personally. Thank you for answering my questions and for talking to us today. Thank you so much.

[ Applause ]

Question: So this first question is for Sarah and Ashley. What does equality at JSC and NASA mean to you? Have we achieved it? Or what more should we strive for?

Ashley White: You said equality?

Question: Yes, equality.

Ashley White: What does it mean to me? And has it been achieved at NASA? It is an everlasting goal. Because just when you think you have reached it, the marks change. We are, diversity is not a one-time fix. The same thing with equality. But it’s making sure that we have a fair and balanced workforce. And that every opportunity is equal to everyone. So for me I think JSC is striving. We are striving to be what we call on our side of the house an EEO model center. And that is where we put practices and plans in place to ensure that we’re continuing to improve. Because, as we have all these new challenges, the same thing arises on the mission support side to make sure that we don’t stay stagnant. What worked 50 years ago has changed. And being open to embracing the newness of people. The newness of ideas. The diversity of thought.

Dr. Sarah Wallace: And I agree completely. And I would say there’s always that, when, you know, when I was talking about, you know, being told no or something. There’s always that little ugliness in the back of your mind. It’s like is it because, what is it? Is it because I’m female? Is it because I’m young? I dye my hair blond, what is it? And so it’s, there’s always that, but I think we are moving past that. And equality for me is, you know, anyone of us can be taken as seriously as, you know, a senior or male who’s been here for a much longer time. And I think we are getting there. But as you’re saying, it’s always, you know, I feel like we always need to be striving to make sure we’re keeping to progress in that way. And listen to everybody’s ideas and everybody’s thoughts regardless, you know, of their background. And, you know, I think that JSC is doing a phenomenal job of this. And we are keeping it very at the front of our mind. And I think we’ll continue to do so.

Question: Next question for our Apollo guests. What traits do you see that are common to all women who have been successful here at JSC?

Dianne Milner: I think loyalty and ambition. You know, I’ve seen those two outstanding traits. Willingness to work. To get their goals, what they want to do.

Mary Dunseith Henry: I’ll just mirror what she said as well. But I think Estella could probably answer this question very well.

[ Laughter ]

Estella Hernandez-Gillette: Mary used to do that to me all the time when we worked together. She’s still doing it. What traits? I looked at women like Marilyn Bocktine. Some of you remember Marilyn. Virginia Hughes, okay. She was federal women’s program manager. Carolyn Huntoon. Who was kind of like way up there because she was a scientist. And, you know, she one of the guys too. I think what I wanted to become was one of the guys, but still be a female. You know, what I’m saying? I mean, I liked the world that the men seemed to have built. And, you know, I kind of eased my way into it by doing what I said earlier. Mimicking some of the women that were my role models like Marilyn Bocktine. One of the things that I realized early on is, if I looked for a role model that looked like me, I couldn’t find one back then, okay. So I looked for a role model that was in the same discipline as I was. And Marilyn was secretary to George Low, okay. Kind of Apollo father kind of guy. But she was so fun. Virginia Hughes was so fun. So look for those traits that you think are important to you and that you can imitate or become like. But also look for the traits that the guys have, okay. I had bosses like George Abbey. One day I want to become just like him when I grow up, okay. I had bosses like Cliff Charlesworth, Apollo 11 and Apollo 13. Who everybody said was not very friendly. But he was soft as a pussycat. He was just such a nice guy when I finally found out who he was. I had bosses like John Young. Who was exciting to be around just because of what he had done. But I picked up traits from all of them, not just women, okay. Because I think it’s important to blend the characteristics of those people who make this place what it is. So if you kind of look too much for something that you’re really comfortable with, then you’ll never change and get there. So look for things that you’re not comfortable with, I think.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Thank you. Okay.

Question: So our last question for today. Did any of you have a male mentor or supporter who encouraged you in your careers? If so, can you talk about your advice or their advice?

Mary Dunseith Henry: Can you repeat that question.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Did any of you have you a male mentor in your career that supported you? And can you tell us a little bit about their advice to you? Is that, did I catch that right? Okay.

Mary Dunseith Henry: So a male mentor for me would have been John Zarcaro. And he was very good at what he did. And he was a very kind man. And he always supported you when you got something bad. In those days our letters didn’t just go out, we typed them. And we had to make carbon copies. We didn’t have corrective tape or anything like that. So we had a woman, Estella, what was her name? You know who I’m talking about. [Laughter] Y’all know who I’m talking about. What was her name?

Audience: Lee Brubaker.

Estella Hernandez-Gillette: Brubaker.

Mary Dunseith Henry: No.

Audience: Iris Garner.

Audience: Betsy.

Mary Dunseith Henry: Okay. I guess I don’t know. My letters from the ninth floor went through Lee Brubaker. That’s who my letters went through. And she was a really sweet person. Kind of like what Estella said about Cliff Charlesworth. When we came to work, she went to work for Charlesworth. And I went to work for Zarcaro. I was afraid of Charlesworth until you got to know him. But she had the reputation of carrying a big stick. And you didn’t want your letter that needed to be out by five o’clock and she wasn’t going to get it till 3:00 along with the other 300 letters that she was getting from all of the other secretarial staff. So that’s kind of where I’m coming from.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Male mentor, does anybody want to share?

Dr. Sarah Wallace: Yeah. So the NASA microbiologist before me, Duane Pierson and Mark Ott, who I look up to both tremendously. But Mark was, has actually been a mentor for me since I was in graduate school. And he always, you know, coming back to what you’re passionate about and your work ethic. He always told me, you know, cream rises to the top. So if you work hard, while there are days here that it seems like nothing is working. And there’s politics and there’s other things involved. At the end, if you continue to work hard and do good work, it will be seen. And you will be recognized for it. And so that has absolutely held true for me. So the times where, you know, he’s been very good about when things have been rough, you know, in the end, if you work hard, things will come through.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Actually, am I allowed to break protocol and answer this question?

Question: Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Rochlis: Yeah, okay. So I had two fantastic male mentors. The first one was Walt Guy. Who some of you know and have worked with. He was the head of the engineering robotics department when I was first there. And he was sort of a silent supporter. I never knew he was championing me from behind the scenes, but he was the entire time. And the advice I got with working for Walt, if you know Walt and you’ve done disk assessments, he’s very green. He likes the data. And he liked to know all the information before making a decision. And so the advice I got was, you’re going to go up in front of Walt, make sure you know. And if he asks you a question you don’t know the answer, tell them you don’t know the answer. And if you do know the answer and you want to, you know, go back and forth, go back and forth. Because you know, and you’ve got the data to back it up. And that was the best advice I ever got working with him. And as a result, we formed this very trusting bond. He knew he could come to me, and I would tell it like it was. Or I’d say, I have no idea. But that’s a darn good question. I’m going to go find out. So that was a piece of advice that I really took to heart. Especially working with people who just like the facts. The other mentor that had was Steve Altemus. Who was the head of Engineering Directorate. And I was up as an executive intern for a few months. And I had been here about seven or eight years. And he says to me one day, Jen, what do you want to do? What do you want to do here? I was like, nobody’s ever asked me that before. I think when I got here I thought, okay, I’m ready for my next assignment. I’m ready for my next assignment. I’m ready for my next assignment. And he was the first person who said, what do you want to do? And I told him. I said, I think it’s really important that we get humans integrated into the spacecraft from the beginning. And he said, I think that’s great. So he asked me to go work constellation from the engineering perspective with the human systems group and partner with the human health and performance, that then was space lab sciences. And we made a great team and did that work going forward. And he, and, you know, I heard this phrase from him. You know, no one’s going to care about your career more than you do. And so it’s great to have mentors and leads and advices, but you’ve got to take that initiative. And he switched the bit in my mind that I was responsible for making things happen. And so I really appreciate that. And I guess the only other nugget I would leave all of our panelists with is I very much value showing up with authenticity. I think we bring our whole selves to work. It sounds trite sometimes, but it’s really true when you work from a place, an authentic place. And I think all of you have touched on that in your stories. I’ve heard that. That nugget is, when you come through and you are your authentic self. And you’re showing up that way, that’s what creates that community and that bond and that opportunity for everyone. So thanks for letting me break protocol and answer. Because I’ve only got a week or two, so I got to get it out now. Thank you all so much for your participation. And I think we’re going to hand it back to Vanessa and Jessica for wrapping up.

Vanessa Wyche: Awesome. What a wonderful, wonderful panel. Thank you.

[ Applause ]

[ Music ]

Host: All right then. That’s a really interesting discussion, Jessica. Kudos to WELL for getting these women to share their thoughts on the panel. And letting us share it with this wider audience.

Jessica Vos: Oh, gosh, thank you so much for the opportunity. We’re really excited to be able to inspire and reach a wider audience with this podcast. I definitely want to thank the entire planning committee. Especially Sarah Smallwood. Rachael Copeland. Allison Rich. Irene Chan. Nicole Schoenstein. Kirsten Davis. And all the other volunteers who truly pulled off some kind of crazy magic in helping Elizabeth Blome and I, my cochair and I make this event, this event idea an incredible reality. They really, really were fantastic.

Host: Great. Thanks, Jessica. Reminder to everybody who’s listening that you can go online to keep up with all things NASA at nasa.gov. Would also be good for you to follow us on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. You will thank me. When you go to those sites, you can use the #askNASA to submit a question or suggest a topic for us. Place indicate that it’s for “Houston, We Have a Podcast.” And you can find the full catalog of all of our episodes by going to nasa.gov/podcasts. When you can do, when do you that, you can also check out all of the other cool NASA podcasts that are there. All available at the same spot where you can find us, nasa.gov/podcasts. The panel discussion you just heard was recorded on August 26th, 2019. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Norah Moran, Gary Jordan for their help on the episode. To Sarah Smallwood and Jessica Vos of WELL for their work, not only putting the thing together, but their work with us to let you hear it. And thanks to all of the panelists, Mary Henry, Estella Gillette, Dianne Milner, Sarah Wallace, Ashley White, and moderator Jennifer Rochlis. We’ll be back next week.