From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, explore the world of human spaceflight with NASA each week on the official podcast of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Listen to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it possible.
On episode 366, NASA’s expert in exploration architectures discusses how the agency stays on track to take humans farther into deep space through reviews such as the Architecture Concept review. This episode was recorded on November 1, 2024.
Transcript
Host (Leah Cheshier): Houston, we have a podcast! Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 366, “Moon to Mars: Reviewing the Architecture.” I’m Leah Cheshier and I’ll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight and more. Back in Episode 297, we talked with Deputy Associate Administrator for the Exploration Systems Development Mission Directorate Kathy Koerner, about NASA’s goals of returning to the Moon with the Artemis program, establishing an ongoing lunar presence and putting the first human boot prints on Mars. Those plans undergo periodic reviews to ensure the agency remains on track and can be refined for taking humans farther into deep space. One of those reviews known as the Architecture Concept Review, took place this fall.
Joining me to talk about the latest discussions is Nujoud Merancy, who oversees the annual architecture concept review cycle. Nujoud is the Deputy Associate Administrator for the Strategy and Architecture Office in the Exploration Systems Development Mission Directorate for NASA Headquarters. She serves as the agency expert in exploration architectures, guiding technical aspects of agency, decisions about exploration, element level performance and functionality, which will have decades long implications for agency goals and international and commercial partnerships. Let’s get started.
[Music]
Host: Well, hey Nujoud. Thank you so much for joining us today on Houston We Have a Podcast.
Nujoud Merancy: Thank you. Glad to be here.
Host: I want to get started with figuring out a little bit more about you and your journey to NASA. So break it down for us. What did the start of your NASA experience look like? How did you get involved, all that stuff.
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so I grew up in the Washington state near Seattle and went to the University of Washington, sort of always wanted to do space stuff and got a degree in aerospace engineering up at the University of Washington. So I came to NASA, Johnson Space Center, originally for Boeing, working on the International Space Station. So in 2002 I started on ISS, did that for many years. And then I worked on Orion program and then Artemis, and now I am sort of at the very biggest picture, the strategy and architecture for exploration.
Host: Yeah, I remember working with you on some of the Orion stuff during Artemis I, I should say. So pretty special mission. Any favorite moments?
Nujoud Merancy: Well, anytime you build hardware and see it fly is like, that’s why we all got into this business, it feels like. So seeing, you know, Artemis I fly, seeing our Exploration Flight Test-1 before that, like those are the days you get up for. And why we come to work every day.
Host: Yeah, those are the glimmer days, like the payoff days when it’s really rewarding. So now you are the Deputy Associate Administrator for the Strategy and Architecture Office. What does that role entail?
Nujoud Merancy: It’s way more words to describe a job title than should be there, that’s for sure. But our office, within Exploration Systems Development Mission Directorate, is the sort of how does it hold together and the big picture future of where we’re going. So there’s a lot in progress right now. The programs that are being built, whether it’s base launch system, Orion, the human landing system, all those pieces, they’re the here and now, but we’re looking at the what comes next. And really starting not just next but really far out there, what are we really looking at as a horizon goal? So that what we are doing today is making progress towards those longer-term goals. So stitching it all together, making sure we know how to develop the next system to come online is really important. And then understanding really all the puts and takes of the vehicles we have for how can we most effectively build a system to utilize them or work with the science community or international partners to help bring them into Artemis as well.
Host: That is a really expanded role based on having just focused on Orion for a while. And now, like you said, you are focused on all of these different spacecraft, not only that, but with other international partners. Do you like having that expanded view?
Nujoud Merancy: I think I’ve always liked the big picture and I feel like my role has just gotten, it’s just a bigger view. It’s the same type of work I’ve done. I’ve always been a systems engineer putting pieces together, working across teams, but it’s just got bigger, right? It was a subsystem on the space station and then it was the Orion vehicle, and then it was the Artemis missions, and now it’s the whole architecture. So it’s really been fun to just get a bigger and bigger view of how this all fits together through my career.
Host: Yeah, that feels natural. It feels like, you know, you focus on your one thing, you get to be an expert at it, and then like you said, you build on it. So that’s very cool. So a lot of that feeds into what we’re going to talk about today, our plans to go back to the Moon, and then on to Mars and how we evaluate that through the architecture concept review, which you are the lead for those plans. Is that right?
Nujoud Merancy: Yes, that’s correct. So we have our Moon to Mars Architecture, which is that big picture, how does this all work together? And the Architecture Concept Review, which is a milestone review each year for how do we make progress.
Host: And so a lot of people I think, hear architecture and they think we’re talking about the actual structures that, you know, we want to put on the Moon or Mars some. So this is again, that concept review is looking at the vehicles, the partners, the structures in some way, and the missions and the operations themselves. This is that review of how it all feeds together and we get to each of those steps.
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, it’s the, you know, if you think about a building, there’s a framework holding it together, there’s the structure and it’s that type of thing, but in a little bit more esoteric way, right? You know, we have a rocket system, we have a spacecraft carry the crew, we have landing systems, we’re going to need suits. All of those pieces have to fit together. So it is this framework or the building that we’re building together at a big picture view of all the pieces necessary.
Host: So when you are planning the Architecture Concept Review, which this is annual, how do you even start to plan something like that?
Nujoud Merancy: So this is really a new effort within NASA and Exploration Systems Development. And really, for the whole agency of we need to coordinate across the agency. So it’s not just Exploration Systems, it’s also the Science Mission Directorate. It’s this Space Technology Mission Directorate, it’s operations, space operations. All of the pieces of NASA have to be a part of Moon to Mars. So how do we make sure all those pieces work together? So we really came up with a plan that is, we evolve the architecture each year. We can’t make decisions. I don’t know what the technology’s going to look like in 10 years. Maybe there’s a big breakthrough out there. So setting up a process that allows us to examine and incrementally improve the architecture each year is what a CR is. So from one year to the next, we have where we left last year’s, a CR, what were the most important things for us to do this year? And then that’s what we focus on in the next year. What’s the next set of concerns that we need to have work to improve the process?
Host: I want to talk about that a little bit, coming up, you know, the things we learned last year and what we’ve built upon and what we’re going to look for this year. But how did we even build this roadmap in the first place? You know, when did we have our first real Architecture Concept Review for what it looks like now? Or has this been something that we’ve been doing all along?
Nujoud Merancy: No, this is really a new effort. So, for a number really for the last couple decades. You know, our goals seem to shift at NASA based on the administration, based on different findings. We were going to the Moon, then we’re going to Mars, then we’re doing an asteroid. And that causes a lot of churn because every, you know, three, four years, it’s a huge shift in focus and you know, it’s usually centered around one stakeholder’s priority. But what happened in 2002 is the agency set about putting together the Moon to Mars goals and objectives. So it’s a very comprehensive set. There are 63 objectives. So if we say we want to do exploration to the Moon and Mars, what do we really want to accomplish? Many of those, I think 23 of them are science-based. What’s the planetary science we want to be able to do? What’s the heliophysics science? We need to be able to do the human research. And some of them are, you know, the transportation and habitation. We’re going to need to have habitation systems on the Moon in Mars to meet these objectives. So if you really think about what’s our long-term plan, that’s what happened in through 2002 with the blueprint goals and objectives from that, we had our first Architecture Concept Review in January of 2023 that said, here’s the systems we have, here’s how they fit the goals and objectives. Here’s the process by which we understand the relationship between what we have, the systems and the long-term objectives. And then we’ve done it, this’ll be our third one that we just completed in November of 2024 of breaking down those objectives into bite-sized steps. So we have use cases and functions that we need, and we know what systems can accomplish what, and then we know what we can’t yet do, and that’s how we know what we need to work on.
Host: Okay. Cause that was kind of my next question is, you know, if we’re looking forward so far into the future, how are we taking into account things that we don’t even know would exist in even 10 years? You know, how do you build that in and take into account what we need but might not have at this time? And then other things like budget changes, you know, how do you kind of plan so far out around those things too?
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so there’s sort of two pieces. One is knowing what we don’t know. So we know what we need to do, but we don’t have to specify how we’re going to do it yet. So I want to be able to take, let’s just say samples at the Moon of regolith and return them to Earth that I know I’m going to need to accomplish the objective. And then there’s many different ways I might be able to get that done. So the first part of the process for us was coming up with that language of being able to take the objectives and translating it into what I need to be able to do. And then I know which systems I have that can accomplish some of those things. So taking a sample, we can get the crew there on Artemis three, they’ll be able to take a sample and we’ll be able to turn some of it in Orion, but we really want to bring large samples back.
Nujoud Merancy: So to do that, I’m going to need a new system I don’t yet have. So understanding the systems, the what we want to do, what systems I have today, and then I can do assessments of what else I may still need. So being able to bring large cargo back from the Moon is really something that would help the science objectives. So that’s something then we can do studies on how to accomplish. We can look at the budget horizons we have and find the most effective way to solve the problem. So that’s really allows everyone to focus on the problems we have or the gaps really they’re not problems and find the most effective solutions and not just sort of poking at single opportunities or outcomes or, I really like this cool system, but I don’t know how it fits the bigger picture. So it’s, yeah, two steps defining what we need to do without over-prescribing how we’re going to do it, and then we can study the most efficient way to get it done.
Host: How much of that really changes from year to year, you know, from last year to this year? Is it a pretty big change every time? Or is it kind of refining each year?
Nujoud Merancy: It’s more refining and incremental? So, you know, we have SLS, Orion, the Landing Systems, you know, this year we’re adding two new elements and they accomplish a portion of additional use cases. One of the elements we’re adding this year is a small surface habitat for the crew. So having a habitat on the surface will allow them to do the intra vehicle, the internal vehicle operations for human health and performance on the surface of the Moon. They’ll be able to do perhaps glove box science on the surface of the Moon. So adding a habitat has benefits to accomplish some of those objectives in our architecture. And so each year we’ll generally add some systems to the bigger picture, but this is incredibly big and complex and far reaching. It’s bigger than the International Space Station effort. It’s bigger than the Apollo program. So being incremental progress, you know, it sounds in some ways small, but these are whole big modules and elements we’re adding each year.
Host: So when you add something like that, what’s your next step? Do you go and put out a Request for Information or Request for Proposals from different private companies or different international partners, or who might want to participate on that? Or is there something else along the way?
Nujoud Merancy: No, as we’re adding an element, we’re doing studies of how we might sort of acquire it. Is there an international partner interested in working on it? Is it something U.S. industry can do? And we’re really refining what is the precursor requirements for the system into something we think can be built and fielded and something we can afford. So if it’s going to be a U.S. procurement, after we get it into the architecture, we hand it over to the Moon to Mars program, which would begin that request for proposal process and start an acquisition. And if it’s going to be something we can partner with international partners, then we can start negotiating that. That might be something they might be able to contribute. So we’re looking all the time at what’s the most effective way to solve the problems, the best stewards of taxpayers money we can be and, and what can make the most effective progress towards the objectives. You know, if we’re going to add something, I want to make sure it’s really helpful. So all of that’s going on. And then after we get it in the architecture, that’s when we begin the partnership or acquisition process with U.S. industry.
Host: Okay. So will you have industry there who all participates in the architecture design review or Architecture Concept Review, I should say.
Nujoud Merancy: Architecture Concept Review is an internal NASA meeting, but it’s kind of an incredible meeting because it has all of the agency leadership. And when I say all, it includes all the mission directorates, all of our Headquarters leadership, all of the centers are represented, all of our technical authorities. That’s, you know, the safety, the human health and performance. All these pieces are all the organizations and, and I keep joking, right? We have like 38 different organizational leadership represented at the meeting so that when we are making these agreements, this process on the architecture, it’s for the agency and everyone’s solidifying behind that strategy. So we can all find the best way forward.
Host: And nobody can say later that they didn’t get to, they didn’t get to be part of the plan.
Nujoud Merancy: That’s also a good outcome.
Host: Oh, well. So this year you also welcomed two new international partners into the plans. That’s JAXA, the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency, a long-term partner with us on the International Space Station, and then the Mohammad Bin Rashid Space Center, which is part of the United Arab Emirates. We’ve seen their astronauts fly to the space station as well. So can you tell us a little bit about what they are bringing to the picture?
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, it’s really exciting to have both these partners on board. I mean, Artemis really is an international endeavor. And so as far as JAXA, the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency, we had a pressurized rover. We really want to be able to get the crew, the ability to drive distances on the South Pole to do those science objectives. We’re talking about, take the samples, be able to bring them back. So JAXA will be providing the pressurized rover for the lunar surface. So that rover is going to be awesome. It’ll take two crew for, you know, seven days drive around. We should be able to do longer, you know, 14-day missions with logistics and resupply. But they will be able to actually provide us the element that’s going to give us a lot of that exploration footprint. On Apollo, they only had an unpressurized rover, so you could only be, you know, a couple kilometers from the lander, but with the pressurized rover, the crew will be able to drive away. It’s like an RV essentially. They’ll be able to drive away from the lander for tens of kilometers sleep, go EVA, eat, do all the things they’re going to need to do and really get good at exploring. So really excited to have JAXA on board in the Moon to Mars architecture with that partnership. And then with the Mohammad bin Rashed Space Center, UAE is going to bring an airlock to the Gateway so that science and EVA airlock. So that way we’ll be able to deploy science at Gateway. So the Gateway’s are orbiting platform around the Moon and also do EVAs if there’s repairs or other systems needed. So another great partnership added to Gateway with the United Arab Emirates.
Host: Yeah, that’s awesome. And I’ve loved seeing them rise in the space industry as a player in the last several years, and very cool contribution. But I did see a real size picture of that of the rover that JAXA is providing, that pressurized rover. And I think an RV is the best comparison that I’ve heard yet because it is absolutely massive.
Nujoud Merancy: And it’s got to be, it’s got to be able to take two crew members, spacesuits all their food and water and oxygen, all those systems, and then drive in some pretty extreme conditions at the pole on, you know, 10-to-20-degree slopes, which is very steep. If you really go outside and find a 20 degree slope, it is not a joke. And then through challenging lighting conditions, the day night down there is not like it is on Earth. So it really is a fundamentally large system. It’s going to be very exciting to see that development.
Host: The more I think about it, I’m just loving the thought of being considered like, or compared to an RV, like it’s a road trip on the Moon. That’s so cool. I mean, you are able to drive so much farther. So with something like a large rover, how do you then go about bringing in a launch provider? Is that already part of the conversation or is that something that you still build after you’ve determined what the need is?
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so the HDL or the Human Class Delivery Lander is how we’re going to land these large systems on the surface of the Moon. And they’re really adapted from our HLS, the Human Landing System. So the two providers for HLS are SpaceX with the Starship and Blue Origin with the Blue Moon Lander. And those are basically going to have crew and cargo variants. So when we land the pressurized rover, one of those two systems will be used without the crew habitation systems, things like that. They’ll put a rover on top and land it and then offload it on the surface of the Moon. So we already have large cargo delivery systems in the architecture through modified versions of the HLS.
Host: I feel like this is all going to be unfolding really quickly once it starts, you know, like we’re going to have cargo being delivered and humans being delivered and gateway and operation. When you look at the concept review and when you look at the architecture itself, does it feel like things start getting really close as we get to those first launches?
Nujoud Merancy: I think it’s one of those things that you’ve got to be willing to be patient and do all the planning for, because we all wish engineering and design went much faster than it did. But once this gets going, it’s going to be incredible. The cadence of missions, the cargo landing, the human mission science landers, there is a lot going on in NASA and really around the world with the Artemis partnership. So it is a really bright future in front of us for exploration.
Host: Yeah, breaking it down like that really does put into perspective how much bigger this is than the Apollo missions when we were just sending humans for a couple of days at a time. But when we’re sending a pressurized rover and we’re sending additional cargo and potential habitats and things like that, it is very, very clear that this is considered a more sustainable long-term presence at the Moon.
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah. We often refer to Apollo as flags and footprints, right? It was single launch architecture and I mean, it’s, nothing can be understated for how incredible Apollo was. But it really was a single launch mission. Short durations, the crew capsule Apollo could only last 13 to 14 days. And so the surface missions were never more than three days. And that there were no systems that could go beyond that. So that was incredible in its own right. But they were always destined to be short-term missions. We are really trying to build out a sustainable architecture that has a lot of capabilities. We’re really looking to explore the whole South Pole and then use that to leverage exploration on other parts of the Moon. So this is really a very long term and we use this term a lot multi-decade endeavor in front of us.
Host: I’m getting more excited about it, just thinking about it. So we talked a little bit about the two partners that we welcomed this year. What new systems are being added this year?
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so a lot of the work we’ve done in the last year has been trying to establish what the needs are for that foundational footprint of exploration. So we call it the foundational exploration segment. Once we get back to the Moon, the human lunar return, then how do we grow our exploration footprint? So the two new systems we added this year, one was a small cargo lander because once we start putting crew down and we’re going to need to service the pressurized rover, we’re going to need to bring more logistics in the form of food and water for the follow on missions that’ll happen. So a small cargo lander was added this year and there’s a lot of cargo needs we’re going to have in the future. And so that’s just the first piece of cargo. And then the second element we added was that initial surface habitat I talked about. So we really want to get to be able to have all four crew members on the surface. So having a pressurized rover and a habitat will allow us to take four crew members down to the surface or extend longer missions with the two crew to be able to have two systems that they can live and work in while they’re there. So there’s a lot we’re adding and it is that how do we grow the footprint to do all that science and technology exploration we want to do on the surface.
Host: I’m fascinated by the idea of a habitat on the Moon. I think this is, it almost feels a little sci-fi of living on the Moon and this being a real reality. So can you tell us any details about what that habitat would be like?
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so we work through the preform and it’s called pre reformulation because we don’t have the design specifics yet, but we know what we need it to include. And so one of the really exciting things about the habitat is it’ll have an airlock on it. And that that doesn’t, maybe doesn’t sound so exciting, but what it enables is that we can keep experiments and science equipment still in the pressurized environment inside while the crew uses the airlock to go outside. And so not having to depressurize the habitat is going to be a really exciting feature of it because we won’t get dust intrusion in those science experiments. And a lot of science experiments, they can’t go to vacuum. So part of the enabling features that really excited about is the airlock that will come with it and then just the crew having, you know, a permanent home. And so it’s that ability to have a permanent home. And then the other really exciting piece about the habitat is it will be able to do a crewed science throughout the year. So the crew will be able to leave experiments running when they depart the Moon and have that continue to operate even without the crew, the other, you know, 350 something days of the year. So there’s a lot of really exciting features that come with that habitat as well as its external power that we could have it supporting payloads and science equipment going on outside. So, you know, and then just the thought of a permanent home on the Moon is a really cool footprint. It’s a step forward in our exploration of the Moon.
Host: I mean, to me it feels like the connection to the International Space Station in low Earth orbit right now. I mean, we all know that’s not permanent, but for the past 24 years that has been a pretty permanent fixture for us. That’s our home in low Earth orbit. So having that equivalent on the Moon, and like you said, the ability to have an airlock that eventually also leaves the opportunity for some crew members to stay inside and not have to get suited up and go out on an extra vehicular activity, right. So that it expands a lot of possibilities.
Nujoud Merancy: And we’ve also got a docking port on it, so we’re leaving open the potential for modules to follow. And it’s that knowledge we’ve gained on ISS that we can build out systems over time, even if we don’t know what they might be yet, we’re leaving a footprint for that future expansion.
Host: That’s so cool. Would you visit?
Nujoud Merancy: Absolutely.
Host: I would, too. Maybe we’ll go together.
Nujoud Merancy: Oh, I’m on it. Let’s go.
Host: This is such a great conversation because I feel like I’m not working very closely right now with Artemis or Orion, but you know, a lot of our focus for most of the agency is Artemis II coming up and sending the crew around the Moon and then Artemis III, the first boot prints back on the Moon. But to hear this larger picture and all that’s being worked is really exciting just to understand the amount of thought and detail and work that’s already happened to prepare us to have people living for an extended period of time, potentially on the Moon.
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, it’s always such a dichotomy, like you focus on what’s in front of you. So if you’re on a project that’s working Artemis II, like yeah, you’re hyperfocused on that. Our team is really trying to look at that bigger picture and sometimes I miss getting to work with the hardware closer, but you know, every side has its perks, but it’s really exciting that we have the time and energy to focus on the bigger picture to allow the teams that need to focus on Artemis II and Artemis III to do their work as well.
Host: So there’s some white papers also being released in conjunction with this review. What do those focus on?
Nujoud Merancy: The white papers is really kind of a fun part of this and I encourage people to go check out our website. It’s literally nasa.gov/architecture, so very easy to find, but the Moon to Mars architecture has a real big technical systems engineering documents, something like 200+ pages now. But the other piece of communication that we do is we publish white papers, which are really plain language explanations and descriptions of some of the questions we get asked a lot or why did we make a certain decision. So they’re only like four page papers meant to be readable for the general public of, you know, why are we going to the South Pole? Why are we in the near-rectilinear halo orbit with Gateway, you know, what is so hard about EVAs on the surface of the Moon? So we get asked a lot of these questions. So we’ve answered in non-technical jargon, get the engineers out of it a little bit. Why are we doing some of the things we do in the Moon to Mars Architecture? So we have 22 papers up till this point and we’re publishing another 12 this year, and they’re all there for record keeping. One of them talks about, one of the ones we’re releasing this year was about how much logistics do we really need on the surface of the Moon? And part of that is because we need us industry’s help solving that problem. So we have industry thinking about how are they going to get all the logistics to the Moon, move it around cause it’s going to come on a lander and we’re going to need it in that habitat. So we’ve got to get it from point of delivery to point of view. So it’s a way for us to talk about the challenges we’re having or the decisions we’ve made for everyone to understand. And so that’s a really great tool we have to help communicate what’s going on.
Host: That’s fascinating. I can’t wait to read the new papers. And we’ve talked a lot about the Moon because like I just said with Artemis II and Artemis III, that feels like it’s in my field of view right now, but Mars is the other half of this. So how does this architecture concept review prepare us for Mars and what things are being discussed when we look at humans on the Red Planet?
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, great question. And I think that’s one of fundamentals about how we’re doing this differently than the past is the objectives we’ve set out are multiple decades in the future. We are going, it takes a long time to do all the things we’re being asked to do and we’re using those Mars objectives as our horizon goal. If we want to be able to explore the red planet, we work backwards from that. So that’s called architecting from the right, what are we going to need at Mars? So what do we need to do at the Moon to prepare? What are the technologies that we’re going to need to enable Mars? So we’ve actually also gone through with the Moon to Mars objectives and we’ve started laying out what decisions do we need to make to prepare for Mars. So one of the decisions we’re making at this year’s architecture concept review was what is the power technology we’re going to need on the surface of Mars? Because we found that that’s one of the biggest drivers to the architecture decisions that will follow. So we are doing a very systems engineering approach of what do we need for Mars? How do we need to prepare for it? And so we’ve actually decided that the surface power technology, primary technology, the big power we’re going to do is go, we’re going to need nuclear power on the surface of Mars because we need a large amount of power that’s scalable to even bigger systems down the road. And there’s a lot of challenges with solar power. So it doesn’t preclude solar power from being used for some secondary purposes, but that main decision will drive a lot of what our later Mars architecture decisions are. So that’s an example of how we can use this process to set very long-term decisions that help us narrow down how we’re going to get to Mars over time.
Host: Wow. And I loved that you mentioned earlier that this is a multi-decal view as well because I think we hear a lot of armchair, you know, engineers talking about why haven’t we gone back and why haven’t we gone to Mars yet? And it really is, when you hear these things, I hadn’t never considered what kind of energy source we’re going to need on Mars, you know, like if we’re going to go on a mission that far away, that takes that long to get there, that long to get home, um, or even just on the Moon to stay for a significant and extended period of time and maximize what we’re able to do there, it’s not something that we just willingly launch and go do again. You know, we want to take that next step from where we were in Apollo. So it’s very interesting to see how that’s all being paved out.
Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, there’s a lot of challenges. I mean, we all know spaceflight’s hard, but I think when we really get people thinking about the number of things we’re going to need to do or the decisions that need to be made, or there’s an infinite trade space of how to go to Mars and none of them are right or wrong, they’re all beneficial for one reason or another, but we really have a number of objectives and a lot of reasons we want to do this for science, for technology, for the inspiration that comes with it. So to make sure that we’re maximizing the return we need to make sure it’s capable of achieving the things we want. So it’s really getting folks to step back and think with the end in mind what we’re doing in the architecture and how do we continue to make progress.
Host: Well, what’s something else you wish people knew about our Moon to Mars plans?
Nujoud Merancy: I think one of the things I talk about a lot is this is an incredibly big enterprise and there’s room at the table for all sorts of partners, whether it’s international partners, different U.S. industry, commercial partnerships, all of these things can be a part of Artemis because this is so big, it’s bigger than any one nation, it’s bigger than any one company. So how do we do this and bring everyone together? And I mean, from a humanistic point of view, that’s an incredible opportunity we have, but it’s also going to take that level of effort to pull this off because it’s that hard. So it really is going to take everyone working together to do this very complicated enterprise.
Host: That’s a great point. I mean, I’m astounded right now thinking about just how expansive this is and recognizing that we cannot do it just alone, just as the us. Like we have to have the ideas that come from our private industry, from our international partners. And so having them built in at this time is a really smart, it’s a really smart move and I think we’ve seen it pay off on the International Space Station. You know, we now have the Artemis Accords that people are signing up to figure out a way they can contribute to these missions. So, I really like that that point that you made. What excites you the most about the future of Moon to Mar’s deep space exploration?
Nujoud Merancy: I think what excites me the most, we’re really trying to, I mean, and this is again, right, build something bigger than ourselves, right? Multi-decade old programs and projects. If we’re going to be successful at this, we need to make sure it continues beyond us. So I think the exciting thing when you really step back and think about it is we are trying to set up a process by which the agency can move forward for many decades. And we also intentionally state that it’s the Moon to Mars and beyond, right? If we can do this properly, we are building systems that don’t even just stop at flags and footprints on Mars. It allows us to keep building out at Mars and continue exploring beyond. So it is a viewpoint or a perspective of building something that’s everlasting. And I think that’s a really exciting thing.
Host: So you just mentioned Moon to Mars and eventually beyond. What is the beyond?
Nujoud Merancy: I think that’s the exciting unknown, right? Maybe it’s Europa, maybe it’s Enceladus, you know, the planets around Jupiter or the moons around Jupiter. What is it we can do, if we built out transportation systems and systems for the surface of Mars that maybe we can build out a permanent Mars presence or take the crew on five year journeys out into space or send humans out to Jupiter and back. If we’re building out systems that can keep the crew healthy, there’s no limit to what may happen beyond that.
Host: That’s so true. That is absolutely mind boggling to think about. And I hope I see it in my lifetime.
Nujoud Merancy: This really is the sci-fi becoming real.
Host: It’s so cool. Anything that you just like want to nerd out about?
Nujoud Merancy: So one of the new things in the architecture this year is we’ve actually defined the technology needs.
Host: Oh, okay. So what’s that entail?
Nujoud Merancy: So one of the new appendices that we put in our architecture definition document is all the technology gaps. There’s a ton of research and development that’s needed on the nuclear power systems, on human performance, like better exercise equipment for the crew. We’ve actually gone through the architecture and listed all of the needs for technology gaps between where we are with the state of the art and where we need to be to accomplish the Moon to Mars objectives. And that’s being communicated in our ADD, the Architecture Definition Document so that our industry and all the universities and academia, they know maybe what they should go invest in or where do we need help? You know, we really need better energy storage that’s lighter weight for the surface of the Moon to handle that long nighttime, the shadow conditions at the South Pole. So if we can get more mass efficient energy storage, that’s an enabling feature for us to help meet our Moon to Mars objectives. And we’ve gone through and listed all those technology needs in the architecture document for the public.
Host: So does it feel daunting when you look at that list or does it feel exciting because you don’t know what you might see in the next five, 10, 15 years that didn’t exist before?
Nujoud Merancy: I think it’s the latter. It’s the exciting part, right? And this is when I said we have a really big table that there’s room for everyone. And by doing it this way, we are not trying to guess at what a solution is. So if someone comes up with a better idea to solve one of those problems, absolutely love to hear about it because that’s something we can then incorporate in next year’s ACR.
Host: Well, Nujoud, this has been really exciting and I am looking forward to reading the White Papers, browsing the website and just seeing it all unfold. So thank you for everything that you’re working on and for joining us today.
Nujoud Merancy: Appreciate it all and thanks for having me.
[Music]
Host: Thanks for sticking around and I hope you learned something new today. The Architecture Concept Review took place in November 2024, and like Nujoud said, you can find out more about what was discussed by going to nasa.gov/architecture. Check out nasa.gov for the latest news and find more episodes at nasa.gov/podcasts. You can follow Johnson Space Center on Facebook, X, and Instagram, use #AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit your idea. And make sure to mention it’s for Houston We Have a Podcast.
This episode was recorded Nov. 1, 2024. Thanks to Will Flato, Dane Turner, Abby Graf, Jaden Jennings, Daniel Tohill, Dominique Crespo, Courtney Beasley, Greg Mercer and Danny Baird. And of course, thanks again to Nujoud for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on and tell us what you think of our podcast. We’ll be back next week.
This is an Official NASA Podcast.