“Houston, We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, the home of human spaceflight, stationed in Houston, Texas. We bring space right to you! On this podcast, you’ll learn from some of the brightest minds of America’s space agency as they discuss topics in engineering, science, technology and more. You’ll hear firsthand from astronauts what it’s like to launch atop a rocket, live in space and re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere. And you’ll listen in to the more human side of space as our guests tell stories of behind-the-scenes moments never heard before.
Episode 11 features Mary Lawrence, Flight Director in Mission Control Houston, who talks about what it’s like inside Mission Control, what it takes to be a flight controller and flight director, how mission control has evolved, and what it may look like in the future. This episode was recorded on June 19, 2017.
Transcript
Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, We Have a Podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center; episode eleven, Mission Control. I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host today. So, on this podcast we bring in the experts. As scientists, engineers, astronauts, Flight Controllers, all to tell you all the coolest information about NASA. But, we’re not the only NASA podcast to do so. As you may know, the Cassini Mission came to a close last week on September 15th, 2017 by literally diving into Saturn. It has made some amazing discoveries, collecting critical data on the ring planet, Saturn and the icy moon Enceladus. And, even landing a probe, the Huygens probe, on the geologically fascinating moon Titan. If you want to hear more about what Cassini did and learned, check out the NASA in Silicon Valley Podcast. Our friends over at NASA Ames Research Center talked with some of the experts on a few episodes, actually, about the mission and what they’ve learned about the sixth planet and its moons. And, of course, a big congratulations to the scientist and engineers who work so hard to make this mission such a success. So, today, here, on Houston, We Have a Podcast we’re talking about mission control with Mary Lawrence. She’s a Flight Director here, at the NASA Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas, and we had a great discussion about what it’s like inside mission control, what it takes to be a Flight Controller and a Flight Director, how mission control has evolved, and what it may look like in the future. So, with no further delay, let’s go light speed and jump right ahead to our talk with Mrs. Mary Lawrence. Enjoy.
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>> T-minus five seconds and counting. Mark.
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The launch to [inaudible] headlights are correct.
>> And there she goes.
>> Houston, We Have a Podcast.
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Host: Well, it’s great to see you again. Last time I saw you we were working on the Everything About MCC video. Very fast paced.
Mary Lawrence: Yeah
Host:And did pretty well on Facebook. Four hundred and fifty thousand views. Famous.
Mary Lawrence: That’s a lot. I try not to think about that, really.
Host:[laughs] But it was so fun. It was like, I mean we title it Everything. I mean it wasn’t really everything, but it was, it was like fast paced information. You got to know more about Mission Control than I guess people would normally kind of find out. And we got to be on the floor. It’s kind of different though, that they didn’t have the titles up there, you know. We we’re mission that Flight Director, GC. Those kinds of things.
Mary Lawrence: Yeah, remind me again. We’ll make improvements for next time, right.
Host:For the next one. Okay, so welcome to the podcast. For this one we don’t have to be as wrapped in fire, so that’s good.
Mary Lawrence: Okay.
Host:We can kind of take our time. But today we are here to talk about Mission Control, and I feel like you’re the perfect person to do this, because you are a Flight Director. You’re in that, you’re in Mission Control making all the decisions. And I guess that’s sort of what a Flight Controller does. Or, sorry. A Flight Director does, right. You’re kind of the, the main person in that room.
Mary Lawrence: That’s right, yes.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: The Flight Director is the lead of the flight control team. So, they’re kind of the final decision maker and real-time spacecraft operations.
Host:Cool. And you do that how often, in general?
Mary Lawrence: I spend a lot of time on console. I’m one of the newer Flight Directors.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: So probably spend a little more time on console than some of the more experienced guys that have a lot more assignments.
Host:I see.
Mary Lawrence: But I would say over the past year I probably pulled about a hundred shifts.
Host:Whoa.
Mary Lawrence: So, one shift is about eight to nine hours long. Eight hours with a one-hour hand over period. And, we do that every few weeks. We’re on console for a string of anywhere from one to seven shifts I would say.
Host:Okay. And there three shifts in a day, right? It’s just how, because you have that hand over period so nine, nine, nine. You guys can exchange your information and pass that on to the next person.
Mary Lawrence: That’s right. We have the day shift and then the swing shift, which is three to midnight, and then the overnight.
Host:All right.
Mary Lawrence: Shift. The fun one.
Host:The fun one. [laughing] Well awesome, so, I’m really excited about this topic because whenever you think about NASA, and you know, NASA as a whole, really, but also the Johnson Space Center, you think of Mission Control. You think of, you know, the people sitting at the desks, looking at the screens, watching and controlling the mission. And, that mission being [inaudible] human space flight missions, especially the ones to the moon. You know you think about the legendary Gene Kranz, and you think about some of those key players in the Apollo landings and everything else to make the space race happen.
Mary Lawrence: Sure.
Host:Or, you know, to win the space race and make human space flight possible, landing on the moon. So, very excited about this, you’re on the ground floor. You’re making all the decisions as you just said. Kind of describe the set up, you know, what are you seeing when you’re sitting at the flight director desk, what’s all the data in front of you? What are you looking at? You know, and what’s it like without the ambiance, the vibe?
Mary Lawrence: Sure. So, like you said it is kind of an inspiring place to work.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: So, you’re working in a hallway where giants of human space flight operations walked before you.
Host:For sure.
Mary Lawrence: So, it’s always a very inspirational thing to even walk into the building and see Chris Kraft’s name written, you know, in big letters on the side, so.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: I agree with you from that aspect, and then inside the room, of course, it’s very modernized compared to how they flew spacecrafts back then. We have, basically, computer systems and lots of screens filled with data. That data’s coming from the computer network essentially on the space craft. So, on the international space station, in this example. And then, it’s sent down through a satellite, a network of satellites, and to more computers here on the ground, where it displays data so that the Flight Controllers can interpret, basically, the health and status of whatever system they are monitoring. So, at any given time we can see whether or not a light fails onboard, for example. Or a thruster, or something more significant. We can see if there is a fire onboard based on the monitoring of the smoke detectors.
Host:Okay. So.
Mary Lawrence: So, we can monitor all of the data.
Host:Yeah, and so that’s essentially what you’re doing, especially for International Space Station, right? You.
Mary Lawrence: That’s correct.
Host:The mission, in this example, that you’re controlling is the flight of the International Space Station and the operations of that. And, the things that you’re looking at and everyone in the room, and I guess outside the room too, and we can get into that later, but they’re looking at data. Different types of data coming from the International Space Station.
Mary Lawrence: There looking at data based on this system that they are in charge of.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: So, the spacecraft is kind of divided into, what we call systems, so you can think of it like the computer system is one system, the communications system is another, environmental system. So, everything that the crew needs to kind of live onboard is grouped under one flight control team.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: So, we have an entire console dedicated to just tracking the stowage onboard. So, as you can imagine there’s a lot of stuff.
Host:Yes.
Mary Lawrence: That we have to keep track of. Anything from crew food to replacement computers or replacement electrical parts. We have to be able to plan for things to break and to be able to replace them. So, we have a bunch of spares, so we have an entire console position that’s really dedicated to tracking all of those things so we know where it is.
Host:Yeah, and the crew, too, right? They can call down and say, “Hey I lost this, can you find it for me?” And then you have that person on console that can actually.
Mary Lawrence: Exactly.
Host:Find that for you.
Mary Lawrence: Exactly. So, everyone is monitoring their data, but they’re also, they’re using procedures, what we call procedures, which are kind of steps that guide you and how to fly the spacecraft, in a way. So, we’re also sending commands from the ground.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: Where we can turn lights on and off, or we can hand over attitude control to the Russian segments. And, you know, it kind of helps guide us through any operation to essentially fly a space station from the ground.
Host:So, it, I mean, I’m guessing, you know, based on what you’re saying communication is just vital to all of this. Everyone has to talking. So, how does that work? You know, how is everyone, is everyone just on like a big chatter or are you, can you talk to specific people? How does that communication set up work?
Mary Lawrence: You can really talk to anyone you need to.
Host:Cool.
Mary Lawrence: So, you’ll notice people in that room have headsets on.
Host:Yes.
Mary Lawrence: And, we talk over what’s called voice loops.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: So, every console position has a loop that’s dedicated to them. So, if someone wants to call them, they can call in a specific loop. And then, there’s also loops that everyone really listens to. We call the space to ground loops or the loops that the crew calls down to Mission Control on, so everyone is listening to those loops at any given time.
Host:Oh, okay.
Mary Lawrence: Only certain people are enabled to talk back to them on those loops. But everyone is listening to those. There’s a loop to talk to the Flight Director, and everyone is listening to the Flight Director loop. So, I generally talk to everyone on the flight loop so that everyone can hear the conversations that we’re having and the decisions that are being made. But, if I want to talk to someone and not everyone else needs to hear it I can call on certain other loops. So, I can talk to our international partners, for example. I can coordinate with the European Flight Director or the Japanese Flight Director or the Russian Flight Director on other coordination loops as well.
Host:So, that’s, is that part of your job, is to handle that coordination? Or do you have someone in the room that is dedicated to that as well?
Mary Lawrence: A little bit of both.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: So, all of the teams are kind of talking to each other based on their roles and responsibilities. But, it is my job to do the overall leading. So, we share responsibility with the Russian Flight Director. And, I also have to coordinate with the other international partners, kind of all over the world. So.
Host:All right.
Mary Lawrence: Yeah. We’re talking to everyone all the time.
Host:Yeah, constant, constant talking. So, you kind of talk with everyone on the Flight Director loop. People are listening back, but. So, how does that, so say you know, an astronaut calls down, and we’ll use the inventory guy, and that’s ISO, is that console. It is a console, right? ISO.
Mary Lawrence: That’s correct.
Host:So, they’ll call down, and they’ll say, “Hey, where is this?” ISO knows where it is, but then, you said, you know, only certain people can talk back to them. Who are those people, and how does that work?
Mary Lawrence: Right. So, the crew would call down and ask a question. Of course, everyone is listening to that question. The person that has the answer to the question would respond on the flight loop.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: With the answer.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And so, they would call the Flight Director and answer the crew’s question. Of course, then, flight would decide whether or not that is what we want to call up to the crew.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: And, that information gets also heard by what we call the Capcom who’s the Capsule Communication, what’s that short for.
Host:I see.
Mary Lawrence: And, they are the ones that talk directly to the crew. So, they’re talking to one consistent person who they usually know. A lot of times, it is a fellow astronaut that sits in that chair, and they’re talking to them consistently for, you know, an eight hour time period.
Host:Okay. So, it is kind of a chain. So, they’ll call to the general space to ground. Everyone’s listening to that, and ISO’s a part of that conversation. But, he’s going to be, he or she is going to be notifying the Flight Director, everyone in the room. You know, I understand this message. Here’s where it is, but then Capcom’s going to send that back up.
Mary Lawrence: Capcom’s going to package the information.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And send it up to the crew.
Host:So, this is, so this is kind of like, I guess we’re talking mainly international space station operations, right? So, this is like a, this is like a normal day. This is, people are calling down. You’re talking back and forth. People are looking at data. But, what other things can you train for? You know, what is, what other things can a Flight Controller do? The Flight Controller being the person sitting in Mission Control, the general person?
Mary Lawrence: Right. Well, we train for all sorts of operations, so.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And, the majority of the time, we’re on console really for what we call increment operations which is just day to day operations for the crew.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And, right now, for International Space Station, the goal and the focus for the crew is to perform science onboard.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: Okay. So, we do a lot of the day to day flying of the space station to make sure that the crew can do what only astronauts can do. Which is science in space. So, they, for the majority of their day now, are doing science experiments and such. So, we’re just enabling them to be able to do that.
Host:I see.
Mary Lawrence: As part of our job. But, there are days where we call them, you know, high tempo ops or critical operations such as EVAs, or we’re getting ready for a vehicle to dock to the space station, or there’s some really highly coordinated, intense operations that we practice for ahead of time. We spend, you know, weeks to months preparing for those types of operations, and then we have kind of a specialized team or a flight specific team that will support for the day of the operation.
Host:And, that’s like, a, you know, when you say EVA, a spacewalk. So, you.
Mary Lawrence: Spacewalk. Exactly.
Host:So, this is all coordinating ahead of time. You come into the room and have a dedicated team that knows, you know, what’s going on for this spacewalk. But then, I guess, you know, how much of the room changes? You have that dedicated team, but is everyone focusing mainly on their part, too, so you can see, like you said, one of the systems was the life support, the environmental person, the person that’s concerned about. So, are they just looking at that, or are they, is their role changed as well?
Mary Lawrence: Their role hasn’t changed.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: It might expand a little bit. You know, they might be doing additional operations that they don’t normally do on a normal day.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: But, they’re essentially working the same system, and they’re working within the same system boundary that they would and that they’ve trained for. But, there’s additional Flight Controllers that do show up on busier days like that. Like, the EVA Officer, for example.
Host:EV, yeah, yeah.
Mary Lawrence: They don’t support all the time, but they come in and support when we’re actually doing spacewalks or preparing to do space walks.
Host:Yeah, because they know the intricate details of what that’s going to take, right? They know every procedure, and you, they can make recommendations based on their knowledge.
Mary Lawrence: Right. They’re in charge of pulling off that operation, and they know everything about it and the equipment that it takes to do so.
Host:I like that terminology. Did you say high tempo operations?
Mary Lawrence: High tempo ops, yeah.
Host:So, dockings and, so what if cargo vehicle. You know, obviously, astronauts are going to run out of stuff, and then they want new stuff. Do experiments, and obviously they need more food, and you need to put fuel and supplies, all that kind of stuff. So, that’s part of the high tempo stuff, right? You got cargo missions going up and down.
Mary Lawrence: That’s right.
Host:You got people going up and down. So, it’s kind of a dynamic environment. So, what other things besides, you know, International Space Station can we be, are you guys thinking about? You know, I know, for example, EFT-1 a couple years ago. How was that, how was that different from a Mission Control standpoint versus, you know, I guess normal operations of the International Space Station.
Mary Lawrence: Right. It’s really kind of exciting time for.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: For NASA I would say. We have the International Space Station, so we’re doing really great science and learning a lot about what it would take to do kind of deep space operations where we’re in space for a long duration, period of time. And, that’s kind of the idea with the International Space Station as kind of a platform to try out technology and learn a lot more about humans living in space for a long duration. But, it’s not, it’s only 200 miles in the sky.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: So, it’s in what we call low Earth orbit. So.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: We would really need a really big rocket, similar to what we did back in the Apollo days to take us to the moon.
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To take us to, yeah, to take us to what we call deep space.
Host:Right.
Mary Lawrence: And, that’s the Orion Project that you alluded to. So, we did test flight of the SLS which is the rocket that they’re building that will launch Orion to those deep space missions.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: So, we’re, as the operations team, we’re just right now learning about the design of the rocket and trying to give input to the engineers that are designing the rocket.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: Designing the capsule that will take us to deep space. So, when it’s time to design the actual mission and operation to do that, we’re ready because we’ve been working on understanding the capabilities of the spacecraft.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: And then, our team’ll work to, you know, design the rendezvous profile to help take us to wherever we’re going to go.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And, we’ll understand a lot about the spacecraft, and I imagine we’ll be structured similar to how we are today where the system, the spacecraft will be broken up into various system. That’s how it was for the test flight. And, we supported form a different room in Mission Control to support that mission.
Host:Yeah. So, I’m guessing it’ll be, you know, a lot of the same folks that have their specialties will be kind of associated with that same specialty in a way on, I guess, EM-1 will be Exploration Mission One which is what they’re calling it now for the one that they’re going to test the SLS, the Space Launch System, the deep space rocket with Orion. So, like, you know, the life support people will be looking at the life support, and the thermal guys will be looking at the thermal. You know, those, so you’re going to have, kind of similar roles or like.
Mary Lawrence: It’s going to be very similar.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: To that.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: Of course, there’ll be a Flight Director that leads the team.
Host:Sure.
Mary Lawrence: And, we already have Flight Directors assigned to working on those missions.
Host:Oh, cool.
Mary Lawrence: And, we’ll have systems, you know, controlled by Flight Controllers. The one unique thing that we haven’t done since, really, the shuttle day is the [inaudible] entry aspect of the mission. So, the actual controlling of the operations of launch and.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: Reentry. Of course, we partner, you know, with the launch control team that will be.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: In Florida.
Host:In Florida.
Mary Lawrence: As well.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: For those similar to how it was in the shuttle days, but we haven’t done.
Host:So, how was it?
Mary Lawrence: We haven’t done, you know, launch and reentry since the shuttle program.
Host:Right. Yeah. Back in 2011, and how did that work? It was, so from my understanding, Kennedy Space Center in Florida, they do all the launch operations, and then it gets to, at what point does Johnson Space Center take over?
Mary Lawrence: I don’t know the agreements that we have.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: For EFT, or for the Orion missions yet, but.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: It’s shortly after liftoff is where the handover really occurs.
Host:Okay, I mean, you guys have training for that whole process going from shortly after liftoff right through the atmosphere and whatever mission they decide to do.
Mary Lawrence: Yep. We’re sitting in the control center here in Houston also monitoring the systems as they prepare for launch, and then shortly after launch, they would hand over to the control team here in Houston.
Host:Cool. So, for each of those, each of those positions, you know, it’s not like you just sit down and start looking at data and you know what to do. Obviously, there’s going to be some practice that kind of goes with learning that role and becoming, you know, having that title of Flight Controller. So, what does that look like?
Mary Lawrence: It’s a fairly intensive training program.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: So, most people that come in have an engineering background. I’d say that’s the most common degree, but a space science related background are also common. So, you come in already with kind of an engineering way of thinking.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And then, you’re taken, within your team, to really start learning specifics about the system. So, you spend a fair amount of time just learning how the system works. Once you get deep enough into your training flow, you start into what we call simulations where you practice doing mission operations.
Host:Yeah, working with those systems.
Mary Lawrence: That’s right. And, you’re evaluated at various points throughout your training to make sure that you’re on track.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And, once you pass your final evaluation, you spend some amount of time on console probably with a mentor or someone sitting next to you that’s been doing the job, and they’re evaluating how you perform real time. And, that takes probably about a year and a half to make it into.
Host:Wow.
Mary Lawrence: Your first certification.
Host:Wow. I mean, you know, when you’re sitting there, you have a lot of responsibility, right? So, at these, in these simulations, and I’m assuming you do these quite a few times, right? You know, this is not just one or two simulations.
Mary Lawrence: That’s right.
Host:You’re doing.
Mary Lawrence: Several. Yes.
Host:Several. You know, I always equate it to, I mean, I’m not a Flight Controller, but I was a lifeguard. So, I kind of know, like, you have to know a lot of stuff, but you’re not necessarily, for the most part, you’re sitting and watching the pool. But, when stuff, you know, when stuff happens, you have to know.
Mary Lawrence: You have to be ready.
Host:Exactly what to do.
Mary Lawrence: That’s right.
Host:So, I’m assuming it’s kind of the same, right, so.
Mary Lawrence: Very similar.
Host:That’s what a simulation is. A simulation is stuff happens. They throw something at you, and you have to know exactly what to do and [inaudible].
Mary Lawrence: That’s right. We have a pretty high-fidelity simulator that simulates data just like we would be seeing from the actual spacecraft. So, it’s.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: Really hard to distinguish looking at simulation data versus real time data. The simulator is really good that way. Then, we have a team of instructors sitting in a different building, kind of across campus here that are putting in malfunctions and have scripted kind of a fun, difficult case for us to be able to handle as a team.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: Yeah.
Host:Wow. They throw everything at you, and you got to be ready.
Mary Lawrence: They’re really good at it.
Host:Those are long, too, right? You kind of, I mean, you’re going to be doing the simulations for a couple hours, right?
Mary Lawrence: They’re usually about eight hours, similar to our.
Host:Like a full shift, then, okay.
Mary Lawrence: To our shifts. Yeah.
Host:Cool. So, when you think about the folks that are at the console, are they, are they flying solo for that console? Are, I mean, there’s something called a backroom, right? And so, you’re going to have support? You’re going to have people, extra people looking at the same data?
Mary Lawrence: That’s right.
Host:Helping you make decisions?
Mary Lawrence: Sometimes.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: So, on real quiet times, you know, increment operations time periods, when it’s the weekend.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: In the middle of the night, we try to go down to the minimal amount of people needed. So, in those cases, you wouldn’t necessarily be talking to a lot of people in the backrooms. But, during those high tempo operations that I was talking about, the EVAs, visiting vehicles, or even really busy days on orbit, we would definitely have a lot of people supporting from backrooms, from the MUR room which is essentially the engineering teams. So, there’s a lot of people that are supporting in other rooms other than the front, the front flight control room.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: I’m talking to on the same voice loops.
Host:So, I was, I just started training for doing commentary for space walks, and so I did my first solo run for, I think it was, I forget the number. EVA 41, I think. It was the one where Peggy Whitson and Shane Kimbrough were out. And, it was the same one where they, their shield was inadvertently lost. [inaudible]
Mary Lawrence: Yeah. Very exciting.
Host:And, exactly. Very exciting. And, all of a sudden, all these Flight Controllers and engineers had to come together. You know, they came into a room, and they said, “Okay. What are we going to do? Because we don’t have a shield anymore. We can’t get it,” and they figured out that it was, it wasn’t going to hit them again or anything. So, everything was fine, but they didn’t have that piece anymore. They needed to figure out what to do. So, they figured out that they can actually take one of the shields that they just removed from another piece and use that as the shield. And, they figured out exactly where to tie everything. Just absolutely crazy, and you got to do that lightning fast. Come up with a decision and procedures and implement it super fast. So, I’m guessing these are the things that they’re training for.
Mary Lawrence: Yeah. So, that was their little mini Apollo 13 moment, right? Everyone’s been comparing it to that.
Host:Right. Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: That’s essentially what flight control is. It’s.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: You do a lot of training to understand your system in a really in-depth way so that when something breaks, understanding how it works isn’t something you really need to do. We already know that. So, it’s just a matter of what resources do we have available, and what do we need this thing to do. And, to come up with a solution. There’s always a solution.
Host:It’s absolutely incredible. So, I mean, you know, Flight Controllers, engineers, all working together, but for you in your case, your Flight Director. You made a, you’re the top dog. You’re making those decisions. So, what did you study, and what was kind of your path to get to that position?
Mary Lawrence: So, it’s kind of all about leadership once you get to the Flight Director position, but it’s also about understanding the capability of your team and understanding the teamwork. So, it’s just, it takes an incredible amount of teamwork and trust to be able to be a Flight Director and help, you know, make those final decisions. But, it’s kind of all about the team surrounding me. But, I would say my background, I started out in flight control, so I definitely had a good feel of how flight control teams work based on my experience. And then, I spent some years in management. So, managing people, flight control groups, and.
Host:All at NASA?
Mary Lawrence: Just getting a little more organizationally intelligent.
Host:Okay. All at NASA. And then, what was, you said mostly engineers. Are you an engineer, too? Do you have a degree?
Mary Lawrence: I have a mechanical engineering degree.
Host:In mechanical engineering. Okay. Yeah. Cool. So, then you trained, you had some years in management and then came on as a Flight Director. So, what kinds of training did you have to go through in order to get to that point, to, you know, learn what it takes to be a Flight Director?
Mary Lawrence: So, before I became a Flight Director, most of my knowledge was pretty narrow, I would say in one specific field. So, I spent most of my time in International Space Station operations in the computer system or communication side of the house with a little bit more mixed in. When I became a Flight Director, it’s all about kind of opening up the world around you and learning a little bit of everything because you really have to be able to understand what anyone is talking to you about so they can make a decision about it. So, similar to, I’d say, the astronaut’s training flow. We take kind of a high-level classes and courses and meet with a lot of instructors from all over the organization to learn a little bit about what everybody is doing.
Host:Yeah, to know, you know, if you have a problem as a Flight Director, okay, you know, let’s get some information over here. You know, there’s certain kind of decision making processes.
Mary Lawrence: Right.
Host:You have to.
Mary Lawrence: You have to know how everything fits together.
Host:Yeah. And, I, you know, leadership is definitely, I got to say one of the top qualities. Well, you probably know more than me, but I would say leadership is definitely the top quality of a, to be a Flight Director. But, what are the sort of kind of personal, like, personal qualities do you have to have? Do you have to be type a? I imagine, like, a type a, you know, decisive kind of. Is there a listening component. You know, I like some balance, you know, what is it kind of [inaudible]?
Mary Lawrence: It’s really all of those things.
Host:Okay. Okay.
Mary Lawrence: I’d say there’s definitely some type a’s around the building. But, you don’t have to be. There’s a lot of.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: I work with a lot of different personality types that are really great Flight Controllers, and.
Host:Sure.
Mary Lawrence: Kind of the baseline skill to be able to support mission operations or Flight Controller operations is being able to communicate, being able to work as a team. So, you’re able to do well listening but also responding and thinking quickly. You’re a good decision maker. You’re a good, hard worker.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: And, you’re able to communicate. That’s probably, I’d say, one of the biggest. Assuming that you’re confidence in your field. Obviously, you need to study hard to understand your system. But.
Host:For sure.
Mary Lawrence: To be able to communicate and understand how everything fits together and integrate with the team. [inaudible].
Host:So, I’m imagining like a sort of quarterback kind of philosophy of that style of leadership and communication and that sort of thing. Along the same lines, if you’re the quarterback, are you, are you working? When you say team, are you working with the same team members all the, do you have, like, some core personnel that you always know and have a strong relationship with that makes it successful. Or is it, does it rotate, so everyone understands the different types of personalities with different Flight Directors and teams.
Mary Lawrence: That’s a good question.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: In some cases, we are working with a very specific team that was assigned to do a specific thing.
Host:Oh, okay.
Mary Lawrence: Like, a visiting vehicle flight is a really good example. So, I’m going to be leading the SpaceX 12 mission that’s coming up in later this year, and I have specific Flight Controllers that are assigned to work that mission. So, we will do flight specific simulations in prep for that mission. We also have a bunch of meetings and work through all the products that are needed in prep for that mission. So, I’m working with a specific team in that case.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: But, a lot of days, just increment operation day, normal day in the life of station. I’m working with whoever is assigned to also work that day.
Host:I see.
Mary Lawrence: So, and I never know who that’s going to be, but I kind of like that because every day is a little bit different.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: And, you have to be pretty adaptable in who you can work with because you’re working with all different personalities on any given day.
Host:Okay. So, for SpaceX, when you say, for that example, you say, you know, you’re going to be working with a core team for that mission. Is it just the grapple operations and release operations, or is there more to that? Is it, like, is it?
Mary Lawrence: It’s mostly that.
Host:Mostly that, okay.
Mary Lawrence: So, it’s mostly planning up through capture and birthing operations. We’re also the flight specific team that will be on for the release of that vehicle.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: But, the Flight Director will also help integrate some of the operations that occur during that birth timeframe. So, if there’s payloads that are brought up. For example, in the trunk of dragon, I will help integrate some of the robotics operations to help take that payload out and deploy it on station wherever it goes.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: For example, [inaudible].
Host:Is there something on SpaceX 12 in the trunk, or no?
Mary Lawrence: There is. It’s called the cream payload.
Host:Cream. Cool.
Mary Lawrence: Yes.
Host:Nice.
Mary Lawrence: It is cool.
Host:What does it do?
Mary Lawrence: It’s analyzing cosmic rays.
Host:Awesome.
Mary Lawrence: Which sounds pretty awesome. I wish I was a smart scientist to be able to design that. So, I don’t know much to, know too much about cosmic rays, but.
Host:But, you do know to grab it with the robotic arm.
Mary Lawrence: I imagine that science is pretty intense.
Host:While a space station’s flying at 17,000 miles an hour and attach it somewhere else.
Mary Lawrence: That’s the easy part. That’s the easy part.
Host:You say easy, but it sounds super hard and cool and complicated. All of the above. That’s amazing. You guys just know, so you have to know so much to be, to kind of be successful. But, you know, going back to, like, the day to day stuff. So, for you, you know, you say you can do a shift, you know, anywhere. You can be on for a week and then have a week off and then be on for another, but there’s three shifts. So, how do you, how do you kind of fit that into your schedule. That one week, you’re going to be working a normal, you know, maybe a normal nine to five, but then the next week, you’re going to be working the midnight shift or the, or the orbit three shift where you’re there while the crew is sleeping.
Mary Lawrence: Right.
Host:Sort of, that’s, is it three to midnight?
Mary Lawrence: Three to midnight.
Host:Three to midnight?
Mary Lawrence: Yes.
Host:So, what’s, so how do you fit that into your schedule?
Mary Lawrence: So, you get kind of used to what we call sleep shifting.
Host:Sleep shifting.
Mary Lawrence: Similar to anyone that does shift work. So, a lot of medical field, for example, manufacturing.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: Similar to that.
[ Inaudible Comment ]
So, we’ll work, you know, in the office when we’re not on console, normal daytime hours. And then, as we’re preparing to work night shifts, we’ll take a day or two to shift our sleep pattern over to working the night shift.
Host:So, do you go to bed, like, a little bit earlier, then, like incrementally, or does it?
Mary Lawrence: Everyone does it a little bit different.
Host:Different.
Mary Lawrence: Some people slam into it. They kind of nap before they go in, and.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And, stay up that first shift and then sleep immediately after. That’s kind of how I do it.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: But, some people will kind of gradually shift their sleep a couple days before they’ll stay up and.
Host:Have you gotten used to it, or do you still find yourself sort of, you know, oh, I’m going to have to stay up and get, I’m going to be tired for this first time or?
Mary Lawrence: It’s a good mix of both, I would say.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: I’ve gotten pretty used to it.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: And, pretty good at what works well for me.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And, I would say that’s probably the case for most people. We also have a team of medical professionals that can help with.
Host:Hey.
Mary Lawrence: Recommending sleep patterns if you need it.
Host:Nice.
Mary Lawrence: That will work for you specifically. Yeah.
Host:Is there essential stuff that you always have to bring with you? So, you know, is coffee just an absolute must, or?
Mary Lawrence: It is for me, yeah. For sure. Especially, you’ve seen the YouTube video, right?
Host:Yeah. Have a coffee with you the whole time. I would be the same way, too. I drink a ridiculous amount of coffee. But, you know.
Mary Lawrence: Yeah.
Host:I’m guessing you have, you can bring food in. Because you’re there, right, the whole time. So, you have to bring food. You have to be prepared for the whole rest of the day. So.
Mary Lawrence: Everything we need to execute is, obviously, on console, so all of our procedure books and everything that we need from a technical perspective is there. So, we don’t need to bring any of that stuff, but.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: Coffee is essential. There’s coffee, a very stellar coffee bar, that we have available to us. But, our breaks are pretty minimal, so whenever we’re not in communication with the satellite is kind of when we take our potty and our food breaks.
Host:I see.
Mary Lawrence: So, most people pack a lunch and run to the microwave in the few minutes that we have.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: Loss of signal with the vehicle.
Host:Okay. Yeah. There’s a handover. We talked about this with Bill Foster, and I’m not sure which episode that’s going to be at this point. But, Bill Foster talked about that handover of communication.
Mary Lawrence: Right.
Host:And, how that works, you know. When you guys are getting, receiving that data and where the space station is, how that, how all the talking digitally, I guess, works. And.
Mary Lawrence: That’s right.
Host:I guess those periods can be only a few short minutes, so you got to run and take that break real fast. Otherwise, you got to be in the room ready for any kind of communication. So, I’m sure you appreciate those breaks every once in a while.
Mary Lawrence: Yes.
Host:So, let’s go back to, you know, how, in the very beginning, you talked about how Mission Control, you know, it looks modern. And, just being in that room, it’s super cool. It’s very snazzy. Nice desks. Nice computers. But, it wasn’t always like that. So, how, kind of how has Mission Control evolved over time? You know, from the classic when you think about the Mission Control with the, you know, two monitors and all the buttons. You know, how has that evolved over time?
Mary Lawrence: Well, pretty much with, as computers have evolved, right? So, computer technology is kind of what drives the capabilities.
Host:Sure.
Mary Lawrence: Within Mission Control, and we try to upgrade and kind of keep current with those capabilities as best we can. So, back in the day, you know, they flew to the moon on a single IBM mainframe computer. These days, we have networks of computers that are driving the workstations that we use. Of course, we have much slimmer and many more monitors to be able to monitor data, and just the communication resources are just so different today than they were then. So.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: Yeah, we try to upgrade and make sure that we’re making use of the latest technology to enable us to do what we do as fast as we can.
Host:Awesome. That’s, I mean, and you have all the kinds of very cool technology. You have, you have the monitors, you know. They’re, a lot of it is it kind of looks like a desktop computer. So, it’s kind of intuitive in the way that it’s designed, but you also have the headset, and you can talk to, like you said, the loops. You can go on whoever you want to talk to there. So, it seems kind of, it seems, you know, it seems like it would work. Is there anything you would want to, you know, anything that you think would make it better? Anything that you’re kind of looking forward to in the future or something that would be, you know? Do you want the data shooting directly into your eyeballs, or do you not want that? You know.
Mary Lawrence: It’s hard for me to imagine. I don’t know. I haven’t thought too much about that. But, you know, I’ll start with wireless headsets. That would be nice, so we could, you know, roam around a little bit. Right now, we have.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: A little bit of challenges with wireless headsets now.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: So, we don’t have that, but.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: So, those types of things.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: And.
Host:Just to make it more comfortable, really?
Mary Lawrence: Yeah, cool, cool TV screens. There’s a ton of technology out there that, you know, doesn’t really fit into our price point budget.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: But, there’s some cool stuff.
Host:We got nice projectors. Now, I’m just waiting for holograms. I think that’ll be pretty cool. Just [inaudible].
Mary Lawrence: There you go.
Host:So, what about the, what about the culture? You know, there has been a different, quite a culture change, really, in Mission Control. I think. You know, how’s, what was it like before, and what kind of is it like now? What have you learned over the course of time that makes it what it is today?
Mary Lawrence: So, the interesting thing about flight operations and the flight operations directorate that I work for is a very traditional organization in a way. So, the founding fathers. We talked about Gene Kranz and Chris Kraft. They were kind of the founding fathers of the principles that we’re built on, and we still adhere very much to those, those principles. And, really, in that, the actions of even, you know, the lowest level worker all the way up through the top of the management chain could have ultimate consequences. So, it’s a very, we understand it’s a very serious role that we all play.
Host:Definitely.
Mary Lawrence: And that starts getting trained into the Flight Controllers and instructors and everyone we bring in to the organization kind of from day one. So, it’s a very serious job, although fun. So, we definitely understand that burden, and we make sure that everyone kind of adheres to that level of scrutiny in their day to day work.
Host:Makes a lot of sense. A serious culture for a serious job. That’s really important. So, has that culture, sort of, translated. Because, like you said, you know, there’s networks, right? You’re not only with the systems but with Mission Control as a whole. It has expanded across the globe. There’s other Mission Controls out there. So, has the culture kind of expanded outwards? Is it all the same? Is everyone, you know, about the international, I guess, collaboration sort of side of the mission operations.
Mary Lawrence: Yeah, we hope so.
Host:Okay.
Mary Lawrence: We hope that influences everyone that we work with.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: Although, I will say, you know, every country or every flight control team, kind of, around the world has their own kind of culture and personality in a way. So, we’re actually learning a lot from them, and hopefully, they’re learning a lot from us being that we’ve been in the business for a really long time. So.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: We are very tradition in how we approach things from a foundational principle, but we’re still learning new things every day. So, we’re also trying to improve and be agile and in our operation and improving how we operate as well. So.
Host:Yeah. A lot has changed, you know. You guys are training all the time, thinking about all these different scenarios that might, that might happen. But then, also evolving, you know, like you said, culture, but also the technology. And just things are expanding, things are growing. So, kind of fitting along with that. So, but, I think that’s about all the time we have, so.
Mary Lawrence: Okay.
Host:For the listeners, if you want to know more or you have a suggestion of what we could talk about on this show, or if maybe you have a question for Mary you want to know more about Mission control. Just stay tuned to after the music here and learn how to submit those ideas. Mary, thank you so much for coming in the podcast today. Mission Control, like I said in the beginning, is I think one of the coolest parts of NASA, especially JSC, but honestly, just that, it’s amazing. It really is cool what you guys do and the things that. I think it’s because of the operational aspect of Mission Control that we were able to land on the moon, and I think that’s really cool. And, I think it’s just amazing that you’re a part of it. So, I’m very happy you were able to make some time out of your busy schedule. So.
Mary Lawrence: Thank you.
Host:Yeah.
Mary Lawrence: It was my pleasure.
Host:Absolutely.
[ Music ]
>> Houston, go ahead.
>> Space shuttle.
>> Roger [inaudible].
>> Shuttle has cleared the.
>> [inaudible] for all mankind.
>> Huge honor to break a record.
>> Not because they are easy but because they are hard.
>> Houston, welcome to space [echo].
[ Music ]
Host:Hey, thanks for sticking around. So, Mrs. Mary Lawrence is a Flight Director in Mission Control Houston, and mostly, she works missions related to the International Space Station. If you want to know more about what goes on in some of those missions that she is controlling and some of those, what was it? High tempo missions, you know? You can go on nasa.gov/iss to learn the latest of all the high tempo activities going on in the International Space Station. On social media, we’re very active. On Facebook, it’s the International Space Station. On twitter, it’s @space_station, and on Instagram, it’s @iss. Think we’re verified on all those different platforms, so just go to any one of us, follow us along on our journey. And, we’ll show you all the cool stuff going on up there. But, you know, Mission Control, we’re studying a lot more things and training for a lot more activities including, and we alluded to, Orion. Go to nasa.gov/orion. Learn everything about that, and you know, we have verified accounts across all social media as well as commercial crew, nasa.gov/commercialcrew. Those are the missions where some of our astronauts are going to be flying on vehicles that have been designed and created by commercial companies in conjunction with NASA including SpaceX and Boeing, and we have some folks that are going to be flying on that coming up here soon. So, go to that website and stick along for that journey, and I think we have some social media sites associated with there, too. So, I think they’re all verified. Pretty sure. Just look for the little checkmark. So, just use #asknasa on any one of those platforms to submit an idea for the show. Make sure you mention it’s for Houston, We Have a Podcast, and maybe we’ll address your question in the future on one of the future episodes. We have a pretty big bank now of a couple episodes that we’ve been recording over the past couple months, so we may be a while until we get to your question, but I promise, we will. So, this podcast was recorded on June 19th. Thanks to Alex Perryman, John Stoll, and Brandy Dean for helping set this up. And, of course, thanks to Mrs. Mary Lawrence for coming on the show. We’ll be back next week. See you then.