From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, explore the world of human spaceflight with NASA each week on the official podcast of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Listen to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it possible.

On episode 368, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) astronaut Aki Hoshide discusses how JAXA is contributing to NASA’s lunar space station, Gateway, and future Artemis missions. This episode was recorded on December 2, 2024.

Transcript

Host (Leah Cheshier): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, episode 368, Gateway: Japan in Deep Space. I’m Leah Cheshire, and I will be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human space flight. And more. You’ll recall last year, we devoted not one, not two, not three episodes to Gateway, but we did four. And that’s because when it comes to humanities first, lunar Space Station, there is just so much to talk about. The science, the advanced robotics, the cargo missions, how Gateway will support Mars Forward planning, and of course, Gateway’s International partners. We heard directly from astronauts at NASA, the European Space Agency, the Canadian Space Agency, and the Mohammad Bin Rashid Space Center of the United Arab Emirates. Well, what about the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, or JAXA? That’s why we’re here today to hear directly from Aki Hoshide, JAXA astronaut veteran of three missions to the International Space Station and Space Walker, about how JAXA is contributing to the Lunar Space Station and Artemis Writ large. So here it is, your bonus fifth gateway episode. Enjoy.

<Intro Music>

Host: Aki, for the second time in your astronaut career. Welcome back to Houston, we have a podcast.

Aki Hoshide: Thank you. Uh, it’s good to be back here.

Host: You know, we are so happy to have you here today because we’ve gone through all four of our Gateway podcast episodes, and we got to hear from astronauts, from NASA, from Canada, Europe, and the UAE. They were all talking about Gateway and their contributions. And our listeners did get to hear about the JAXA contributions, but we wanted to hear directly from JAXA before we close out this podcast series. So thank you again for being here to round out the Gateway series in the best possible way.

Aki Hoshide: Yeah, it’s my pleasure to be back here and, uh, talk about Gateway and, uh, we do have some contribution, uh, in that program, so happy to talk about it.

Host: Awesome. Well, before we get to that, I wanna talk a little bit more about you. It has been a while since we had you on the podcast. Um, and you were on Crew 2, that was the most recent, recent that episode we had you on. So, but let’s rewind a little bit more, Crew 2, let’s talk about your childhood. What was Sure. Growing up like, where did this passion for space begin?

Aki Hoshide: So, as a child, I actually, uh, lived in New Jersey, believe it or not, <laugh>.

Host: I, I believe it now that you say it, but I didn’t know that.

Aki Hoshide: Yes. Uh, it was just, uh, four years from age three to seven, so up until second grade. Uh, but, uh, my father was a businessman and he had an office in Manhattan. So we lived in New Jersey. He commuted. Um, I was there for four years, and, uh, uh, there was a chance where my dad took me down to Kennedy Space Center

Host: Oh my gosh.

Aki Hoshide: And saw rockets. And it was about the time where like Star Wars, Star Trek was on TV Oh, yeah. In, in the movies. So that, you know, science fiction aspect and, you know, looking at the real hardware that kind of combined, uh, gave me a dream of, Hey, it’s gonna be cool if I, if I can get to space.

Host: Wow. That’s really early on second grade you said? Second grade, yeah. So how did you tailor your studies after that?

Aki Hoshide: So, um, you know, we moved back to Japan after that. Um, we did not have any Japanese astronaut at that time. So the first three Japanese astronauts, Mamoru Mohri, Chiaki Mukai, and, uh, Takao Doi, they were selected when I was in high school. And so that kind of gave me a, an idea, okay, if you become an astronaut, that gives, gives you a chance to go to space. So since then, you know, it was in the back of my mind, um, to become an astronaut.

Host: Wow. Okay. That’s amazing to, to have that dream, but also not really have anybody in your arena. You know, that you had seen achieve it yet. And so that’s amazing that it, you persisted with that dream and then, and eventually obviously flew yourself. Wow. So how do you think any of those experiences from your youth helped you get to where you are today?

Aki Hoshide: I think, um, you know, it’s, uh, it’s hard to study or prepare to become an astronaut. Um, and obviously there’s no like textbook or, you know, school to go to, to become an astronaut. Um, but, uh, you know, I, I tried my first time to, uh, for a selection when I was in, uh, college. And, uh, of course you, you know, just like in nasa, you have to have a bachelor degree, at least in the science. And of course, I’m not, I’m still in college, so I don’t have that <laugh>. Um, but uh, I had to try anyways. Yeah. Because it’s not regular that, uh, we have a selection in Japan. It’s like maybe, you know, as needed Okay. Basis. So it could be two years in between, it could be 10 years in between. So I didn’t know when the next chance would be. Right. So I talked to my dad and he encouraged me, Hey, try it. You know, you obviously you don’t have the right qualification, but you know, it wouldn’t hurt. So I tried it. Of course, you know, right off the bat they say, Hey, you don’t have the right qualifications.

Host: <laughter> crushed.

Aki Hoshide: Right. So, um, but then I joined the, the, uh, Japanese Space Agency. At that time it was NASDA. Um, now it’s JAXA. But, uh, I started as an engineer and, uh, I got to come to Houston, I think it was my third year. Um, initially I worked on the H2 Rocket program, and then I got transferred to the, uh, astronaut office as a, as an, uh, astronaut support engineer. So, um, you know, I got to come to JSC kind of followed, uh, Koichi Wakada. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The legendary co <laugh>. I think everyone knows him, but, uh, I got to spend some time with him and learn about training, learn about the space shuttle and space flight, and, you know, that was, that was a great experience.

Host: So when did you get selected? What was the next opportunity?

Aki Hoshide: So I tried another time, and I didn’t make it that time either. Um, that was when, uh, Soichi Noguchi was, uh, selected mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then, uh, on my third try, I finally got in. So that was 1998 that we were selected.

Host: And how big are your astronaut classes?

Aki Hoshide: Um, so at that time, it was three of us, myself, uh, Satoshi Furukawa, who just came back on, uh, Crew 7 mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, Naodo Yamazaki, uh, three of us were selected, and we had our very first basic training in Japan. Okay. Uh, up until then, you know, either a payload specialist on a, on a space shuttle mission or the mission specialist, they were sent here at JSC to go through the training. Got it. Um, but it was the very first time that we actually built our own training and went through that. And actually, I was responsible for making the basic training requirement multilaterally, so I, I could blame myself for <laugh> any, any hard training

Host:  <laugh>. Wow. That’s so funny. I mean, to have a class of three also. I mean, that’s a very close knit group. Yes. How long are you in training on the JAXA side of things? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because obviously you joined NASA astronaut training mm-hmm <affirmative>. But for the JAXA component, how long is that?

Aki Hoshide: So it was about two years. Altogether. And we covered like systems training, um, some science, uh, background training, um, flight training, some, uh, underwater, you know, spacewalk training. Uh, we had a facility in Japan that we could do that. It, unfortunately, it was damaged, uh, by the earthquake. Mm-hmm. So it’s not there any anymore. But, uh, at that time we had it. So we used that opportunity and, uh, did some spacewalk training there. Um, what else? Robotics training, Russian language training, everything. Everything. Pretty much everything. So we did that and we got certified as astronauts, uh, from JAXA. Um, unfortunately, uh, Columbia happened. Yes. Right. So, uh, everything was put on hold after that. Um, JAXA was wondering what to do with us, so we went to Russia for six months long Soyuz training. Um, and then, uh, it just happened that the 2004 class would open up at, at JSC. So all three of us joined that class.

Host: I feel like you got a double dip of training. We did

Aki Hoshide: <laugh>,

Host: You did two years with Jackson, and it sounds like you did everything that we really do here at NASA too. So you must have felt pretty prepared by the time your first mission rolled around.

Aki Hoshide: Um, yes and no. Um, you know, the training in Japan was great, but um, again, it was the first time. Right? Sure. So all the systems training that, uh, that prepared the training team, uh, for their, uh, the Japanese module training that we provide. Okay. Um, so that tra that helped them. Um, it also helped us too, but I think by coming here, um, you know, you’re immersed in English mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And you get more operational content, uh, here. So I think that helped us to become even, you know, better as astronauts.

Host:  Yeah, absolutely. Well, you were talking about the legendary Koichi Wakada

Aki Hoshide: Yes  <laugh>

Host: But looking at your rap sheet, you’re pretty legendary yourself.

Aki Hoshide: He’s a man and I’m the boy. That’s what we say. <laugh>.

Host: I don’t know about that. I mean, you’ve flown on space shuttle, so use, and then Dragon Yes. For Crew 2. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That’s a very rare thing for astronauts to have flown on three different spacecraft.

Aki Hoshide:  So it turns out, um, Soichi Noguchi did it the first time as a Japanese astronaut. Okay. So he flew on all three of those. Um, I did it on Crew two, and uh, Koichi did it too. Yeah. On, uh, crew five. So, well,

Host: He had to catch up to you.

Aki Hoshide:  He had to catch up.  <laugh>

Host: <laugh>, you were the man <laugh>, you’ve also done four space walks. I mean, you are no stranger to, to all things space.

Aki Hoshide: Yeah. I’m very fortunate to, uh, have four space walks under my belt. Um, you know, I got, I wasn’t doing really well initially in, you know, NBL training. I’m not big, I’m not, you know, muscular or anything, but, uh, I had good coaching and, you know, uh, good training team that helped me out throughout the years.

Host: Amazing. Well, what would you say, if you could go back, you know, now with all this experience that you have on these three different spacecraft, your four space walks, all the time you’ve spent on the Space Station, what would you say to yourself before your first flight?

Aki Hoshide: Um, enjoy <laugh>. Yeah. Enjoy the flight. But, um, there were obviously, you know, throughout the training program, and even now, um, you know, a lot of challenges, right? You, you do new things, you have new systems and a new operation. Um, I also capcom at MCC here. Oh, yeah. Um, so I see that part of the house, uh, where there’s a lot of people working together, making sure the crew’s safe, and, uh, you know, trying to overcome any challenges. Um, but, uh, you know, I would encourage myself or anyone else to, uh, just, you know, try continue that.

Host: Talk a little bit about your time in space, your time on the Space station, because we’re gonna talk about Gateway today. Which will eventually be our space station around the moon. What is it like to live for an extended period of time on the International Space Station?

Aki Hoshide: So, um, you know, my three space flight, I kind of look at it like this. So, um, my space shuttle flight was a second of three, um, assembly flights for the Japanese module Okay. For the International Space Station. So that was still the assembly phase,

Host:  Right,

Aki Hoshide:  The second flight and the third flight were long duration flights. Um, and, you know, it was a couple of years in between, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I’ve seen the changes. Yeah. And you know how it matured throughout the years. Um, you know, uh, you had an empty module. Now it’s, you know, uh, a lot of, uh, payloads in it doing science. And then, you know, my last flight, I go in from Dragon and you see so many things there, <laugh>. It’s, it is evolving.

Host: It is Full up. Everything is up there.

Aki Hoshide: So, and it’s, you know, fully, truly a international program, right? You have, you have NASA, you have Russians, you have, you know, ISA astronauts and Jackson and CSA astronauts, um, all over the world, right? So, um, and you have, uh, mission control centers all over the world as well, helping us out. So, um, I did appreciate all the help that we could get from the ground. And also, um, helping each other on board. There’s only seven of us, so if you need a hand, you know, you gotta you gotta get it from someone else on board.

Host: Yeah, you have to be able to count on your friends and colleagues.

Aki Hoshide: Exactly. And, uh, I think that was the beauty of our crew. You know, everyone was listening to the, uh, space to grounds, and if someone was having a hard time that day, someone will show up. And I was fortunate that, you know, I was calling around and saying, Hey, you know, like having trouble, uh, maybe loosening this bolt. Yeah. And then sooner or later someone comes in and says, Hey, can you give a hand?

Host:  That’s so nice.

Aki Hoshide: They’re, they’re like family.

Host: That’s such a testament. So you’re right. It is like a family. I was gonna say a team. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But honestly, when you are in those close quarters together mm-hmm <affirmative>. And you have to rely on each other, it really becomes a family. Yes. So what do you think it’ll be like for the astronauts living on a space station around the moon? What do you think? It’ll be different.

Aki Hoshide: So it’s gonna be farther, right? That’s

Host: True.

Aki Hoshide:  <laugh>, the first thing, um, a lot of people talked about the isolation factor on board living and working on the International Space Station for like six months, right? Right. Um, a lot of people talk about, hey, the psychological aspect of, uh, living far away from your family, um, and being isolated from the rest of the world. Um, I never felt isolated. And it’s probably two things. One is, you’re together with your family, right. On orbit, um, you’re having a fun time, right? And second is, uh, you’re in constant communication with the ground. You’re talking to, you know, the control centers all over the world, including Houston every single day. Right. So, and you, you do have the chance to talk to your family, you know, communicate with them via email or, or phone. So I never felt isolated. Now, if you go further, that might be a little difficult, right? It, it’s gonna be different and it could be difficult. Um, but if it’s gonna be, uh, maybe 30 days at a time, right? So, um, I see it as somewhere between a shuttle mission and a, you know, ISS long duration mission.

Host: Yeah. I also wonder too, I mean, I know that y’all spend a lot of time in the cupola mm-hmm <affirmative>. When you’re on the space Station.

Aki Hoshide: Yes. That’s a good point.

Host: And I feel like that’s a almost a connection point too. You’re looking down at Earth and you’re seeing places that you’ve been or that you wanna go or you recognize, and obviously you can’t reach it, but you see it. And so I wonder if there’s also potentially a shift there too, from feeling a little bit more isolated or a little bit farther away once you’re really looking down at craters on the moon mm-hmm <affirmative>. Instead of looking down at, you know, the land that you love. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Aki Hoshide:  That’s a good point. Um, I think there was a, a NASA astronaut that mentioned that, uh, you know, when we’re traveling maybe to Mars mm-hmm <affirmative>. You’re gonna be in, uh, you know, uh, vast darkness for months and months at a time. Right. So if you’re flying through the darkness of space, and nothing’s gonna be changing out the window. Right. So he, his thought was, Hey, so it’s gonna be hard psychologically for that person, uh, give them work. Yeah. Give them constructive work so that they can, uh, you know, take their minds off of that.

Host: Yeah, that’s a great point. I mean, even here on Earth, when we get into the winter seasons, you know, a lot of people experience different, um, mood changes or emotional changes when we lose sunlight. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that’s just, you know, losing a few extra hours a day mm-hmm <affirmative>. That we are experiencing in the summer. And so that, it’s a very good point that once you are in that extended period of darkness, how do you feel not so trapped in a spacecraft. So, great, great thoughts as we look out to Mars too. So before we really dive into Gateway, I wanna zoom out just a little bit and talk about JAXA. Okay. Japan has been a major player in space exploration for several decades now. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We talked about the first Japanese astronaut to fly with NASA’s Mamoru Mohri, and he flew in 1992. So since 1992, can you tell us about how Japan has contributed to space exploration, both with the human space flight, but obviously with non-human space flight as well? Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Aki Hoshide:  Mm-hmm <affirmative>.  Sure. So, um, for the human space flight aspect, um, so again, like you said, uh, the first Jack’s astronaut, or at that time, NASA astronaut, uh, was Mamoru Mohri. He flew on the space shuttle and, uh, he did a, uh, science mission on board the space shuttle. And that was the start of our human space flight. Uh, but that was a, uh, a plan to prepare for the upcoming space station. I think at that time, uh, we’ve already, um, agreed to build the space station together. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. With other partners, including nasa. So, um, JAXA, although we did have, uh, some technological, uh, background, we had absolutely no idea what human space flight was. So, um, including the hardware, the design, development, safety aspects, operation training, um, we had to start from scratch in that, those areas. So, um, I think all the space shuttle flights, um, helped us understand what human space flight is about. And, uh, in parallel to all those space shuttle flights, uh, we’ve been developing the, uh, Japanese module that’s been attached to the, uh, international Space Station.

Host: Yeah. And that’s a very crucial module for us too. It’s the Japanese experiment module. It is a lab. Yes. And, um, also has an external airlock. You can put payloads outside. So it’s really functional. Yes. Um, did you spend a lot of time working in the JEM when you were up on the station?

Aki Hoshide:  I did <laugh> and, uh, you know, when you have a Japanese astronaut on board, I think the, uh, the JAXA team tries to take advantage of that six months. Right. So, because you can communicate in, in Japanese if needed, um, you know, you, you know each other so well. Right, right. So, um, they hope that we can help and we, we hope that they can help us out as well. So it’s a mutual thing. I think

Host: The JEM is one of the easiest modules for me to, um, identify when I see pictures inside the Space station. ’cause it’s so distinctive. It has the airlock in the center at the bottom, and then it has the two windows on either side up above. And that’s where we do a lot of the down links from as well. So, um, for anyone that’s ever gotten to watch a message from space or a downlink or communications or something, now you know how to spot <laugh>, the Japanese Experiment Module <laugh>,

Aki Hoshide: I still remember the very first, uh, downlink that we did, um, board the, um, our space shuttle mission, STS 1 24. And, uh, we moved the Japanese logistic, uh, module from node two to the JEM, uh, pressurized module. Okay. And, uh, we did our downlink, uh, PAO event right in front of the airlock. And I remember it was Mike Fossum, Uhhuh <affirmative> talking about this. And we’re like, okay, what, how do we end this? And he looks up and let’s go up

Host: <laugh> <laugh>,

Aki Hoshide: I think that started

Host:   Yes! That’s

Aki Hoshide: Everyone ending a PAO event to, you know, fly up.

Host: Yeah. That’s like a signature. He should have, you know, put a trademark on it somehow. Special spin, because everybody does that now. That’s so funny. Well, JAXA also had HTV. Yes. Um, which was a cargo replay spacecraft. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Came up to the Space Station maybe until 2018,

Aki Hoshide: I believe. So, um, don’t quote me on that <laugh>, but, uh, what we, we have had, uh, nine successful, uh, missions and, uh, you know, after the ninth one, we, we ended it, but, uh, we are now developing an HTVX, which is the next version. Um, it should fly very soon, hopefully, knock on wood. But, uh, it’s, it’s already ready. So, uh, hopefully we’ll continue that legacy.

Host: Well, let’s talk a little bit more about Gateway specifically now. So Luca Parmitano told us some about how JAXA is working with ESA. Uh, for anyone who wants to go back and listen to that, that’s episode 348 together to the moon. But I wanna hear more from your point of view. So fill us in on some of the JAXA Gateway contributions.

Aki Hoshide:  Sure. Um, so unlike, um, ISS, we’re not building a module, but like you said, like Luca mentioned, um, uh, you know, ESA’s gonna provide, uh, uh, module I have. And, uh, we’re gonna provide, JAXA’s gonna provide, uh, the life support system, which supports the entire gateway, uh, station. So, uh, you know, that, uh, life support system will be responsible and provide, uh, pressure control system, uh, temperature and humidity control, uh, CO2 removal. Um, everything that we do onboard the Space Station right now, uh, will need to provide that. Um, like I said, it’s far further away, right? So you wanna build a smaller, more reliable, and, uh, of course it’s going to get hit by a higher dose of radiation. So you, it’s gotta tolerate that as well. Um, so there’s a lot of challenges on that system, but that is the, uh, one of the key components, uh, that, uh, space station. So

Host: What do you think the benefits are in what we know now about the International Space Station? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, we have an ECLSS system there. How are you using and adopting that technology to make it more robust for something that has to experience higher doses of radiation and be farther away from Earth?

Aki Hoshide:  Mhm <affirmative>. So I think there’s a, a lot of, uh, um, experience through the space station, uh, life support system. And, uh, we’re going to, we’re kind of using that as a good reference, but at the same time, uh, we need to come up with, uh, new technology, new components. And that’s, uh, really challenging, especially if we’re, uh, limited by resources like, um, uh, electrical power. Hmm. Right. So we don’t have as big of, uh, a solar array right. On board the gateway. So, um, we’re limited by power as well. So you gotta think about the efficiency as well. So there’s a lot of, uh, new challenges that we’re facing right now.

Host: And where is the hardware being developed? Is that somewhere in Japan, or are you working with teams here already?

Aki Hoshide: There’s a couple of companies in Japan that are working those, uh, components, uh, with, in, in Japan, and then it’s gonna be delivered to, uh, Europe. Okay.

Host: It looks like you’re also working on the batteries as well.

Aki Hoshide: Correct.

Host: So batteries, are these the kind that we have on the space station that take the solar power, store it, and then use it when we’re in a period of darkness? Is that the same thing?

Aki Hoshide: It’s pretty much the same. Um, it, it is a battery, right. But, uh, we’re using the HTVX technology and using the same one as well. So, you know, it’s been developed, so we’re trying to use the same technology and, uh, the, the reliability of those batteries are the same. So it’s already certified, it’s easier to use what’s certified.

Host: Yeah. And that also gives you an opportunity to test it here in low Earth orbit. I mean, that’s what we continue to talk about with the Space Station being that kind of paving ground mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, because once HTVX flies, then we have those batteries in space and, and if needed, you know, making any fine tuning adjustments or anything like that before we start relying on them for gateway too.

Aki Hoshide:  Yes, Absolutely. Right.

Host: And cameras as well. I mean, we are gonna want amazing imagery, the moon, everything coming and going. So what does that look like for the JAXA contribution?

Aki Hoshide: So, honestly speaking, I don’t know much about the camera. I know that we’re, uh, you know, trying to come up with, uh, good components and, uh, like you said, the imagery is, it’s fascinating to see what’s, what’s out there and, uh, looking out, uh, and helping out the robotic arm outside.

Host:  And I just wanna go back for a second. We talked about HTVX. Are we also gonna be sending HTVX to gateway?

Aki Hoshide: That is a plan. Okay. So there will be a, like a derivative from, uh, HTVX that we would, you know, modify and, uh, help logistics supply to Gateway.

Host: Do you know what some of the differences are? <laugh>,

Aki Hoshide: <laugh> not a whole lot. I know, I know it’s gonna be, you know, uh, somewhat similar but probably a little different. Um, I, I think one of the differences would be for HTV and HTVX, it’s a track and capture and birthing, right? You need the robotic arm and you need people, you know, the crew member inside to capture it. Um, we will eventually do a docking demo on the space station, and then, uh, for Gateway, I think we’re gonna go with a docking instead of, uh, tracking capture and birthing.

Host: Yeah, that makes sense, because I know Gateway will not be crude all of the time.Like we have the Space station continuously inhabited, but Gateway will be more in phases.

Aki Hoshide: Right.

Host: So that makes perfect sense of why you’d want to make sure that they get the cargo there maybe before the astronauts arrive. Yes. And they can dock themselves and then go get dinner. <laugh>

Aki Hoshide: <laugh> have the goodies already there.

Host: Yeah. Oh, that’s awesome. Uh, so we are going to be flying a Jack’s astronaut to Gateway which is really exciting, but also a future Artemis mission. We’ll see a Japanese astronaut go down to the lunar surface.

Aki Hoshide: Correct. So, uh, we will be providing a pressurized rover on the surface of the moon. So, uh, we will be sending, uh, I think their agreement is two astronauts from Japan. And, uh, hopefully, you know, we’ll get there and, uh, see the surface together.

Host: Yeah. So where’s the rover being developed? Is that also in Japan?

Aki Hoshide: That is also Japan as well? Um, it’s, uh, it’s still early phase of study. Um, we’re working together with NASA and a lot of companies in Japan. Um, but, uh, it looks cool on, on, you know, paper right now.

Host: Oh, It looks so cool. <laugh>. Are you kidding me? We, we also recently spoke with Nujoud Merancy about, um, some of those plans and about the pressurized rover, and she likened it to almost like an rv. And that’s exactly how I envision it now, because I saw a, a scale photo of it mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I was just taken aback. I mean, obviously the space station modules are massive and launched in the belly of the space shuttle and, and, but I never saw those with my eyes mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so seeing the, how big the pressurized rover is,

Aki Hoshide: yes.

Host: It’s fascinating to me to think that we can launch that, land it on the moon, and it really brings a lot more capability than we ever had during Apollo. Because those weren’t pressurized, Dune buggies, essentially <laugh>, because how I think of them, you know, I mean, this will really allow the astronauts to go do longer trips on the lunar surface, do more science, anything else in there.

Aki Hoshide: Yeah. So basically it covers, uh, you know, a lot of, uh, uh, area, right? So instead of just walking or taking the, uh, the buggy to and from a habitat, you know, you can sleep over in the rv right? <laugh>,

Host: right.

Aki Hoshide: And, and, uh, you know, continue your way. Um, of course, you gotta think about all the what ifs, right? So if something happens and you get stuck, what do you do? Um, you have to think about those, um, issues as well. But, you know, having a, a pressurized rover where astronauts sleep and eat and, you know, be in a short sleeve environment, um, uh, other than, you know, just going out in a spacesuit, that would be a huge contribution in my mind.

Host: Oh, yeah. I see it as a game changer, honestly. I think so too mean, I feel like, because during, you know, Apollo missions, you really had limital limited consumables. Um, for once you were down on the surface and you had a very strict timeline for, for coming back. And so everything, I mean, we maximized every single second. And I know that we will do the same, obviously, on these future missions, but there is a little bit more flexibility there. Yes. When you have an environment in which you can live for a few days at a time.

Aki Hoshide:   Yep. And that, uh, press driver over is manned, but also can do unmanned, um, expedition as well. So really?

Host:  Yes. So self-driving,

Aki Hoshide: Self-driving or remote? I don’t know. I think maybe both. Okay. But, uh, like I said, there’s only a certain amount of time that will have astronauts on the surface, so other than that time, you know, what do you do with the rover? So we, we thought, hey, let’s just utilize it so I can go scouting.

Host: I didn’t know that

Aki Hoshide: <laugh>, so it’s got that capability, um, on the plan as well.

Host: Oh my goodness. No, I didn’t know that. That’s fascinating. And, and how clever, um, to continue using that. I mean, it makes sense. You know, we’ve done so much work with rovers on, especially with Mars. Um, over the last 50 years since we landed on the moon, uh, the last time. And so being able to take some of those lessons learned as well, I’m sure. And implement that. Um, and, you know, controlling a, a spacecraft essentially, or an RV <laugh> Right. Um, on the moon from Earth is very much feasible now. Yes.

Aki Hoshide: So when I heard that JAXA’s gonna try and build this, uh, pressurized rover, um, I thought, yeah, we’re gonna build a car. But then I thought again, and I realized that no, it’s a spacecraft on wheels because we’ve never built a, uh, you know, human rated spacecraft. We’ve been doing, you know, launching cargo vehicles.

Host:    00:34:36    Yeah, that’s true

Aki Hoshide: But, uh, yeah, we never, um, built or developed a human rated vehicle. So it’s a, it’s a, you know, spacecraft on wheels. But then I thought a little more and realized that no, it’s not even that. It’s a, it’s a whole new civilization, whole new infrastructure on, on the moon. Um, it’s the habitat, it’s the lander’s, the spacecraft, or sorry, the spacesuit and the rover, and you need comm assets and navigation and everything, logistics, supplies. So it’s a whole new civilization on the learner surface, and the pressurized rover is gonna be a, like a key asset to that.

Host:  Yeah absolutely. And, you know, it’s so much more permanent mm-hmm <affirmative>. I think, and that’s the whole goal is we’re not going back, um, just to visit mm-hmm <affirmative>. We’re really going to have a presence mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, I, I recently spoke to a school and one of the kids asked me, when do I think that we’ll be living on the moon? And when you hear about this, and when you really think about, like you said, a communications network, uh, I mean, just those, you, you see the spacecraft, you know, that’s the visual. But when you think about all the infrastructure that has to be developed behind that, I was able to tell her, I really think that in your lifetime, in my lifetime, we will have the opportunity to see humans living and working on the moon. Right. Um, just because Gateway and, and these, you know, pressurized Rover and all of the plans with Orion and Artemis, like these are really very soon. In the timeline of NASA history and NASA future.

Aki Hoshide: Right. Yeah. We, we take it for granted on the ground, like all the navigation, we can just, you know, use our smartphone and go from point A to point B easily. We’re so used to that, but we don’t have the same, um, infrastructure on the moon. So we, we talk about how do you navigate from point A to point B where you don’t have a map, right? So we’re gonna have to build one. Right. And you have to build an infrastructure to help out with the navigation. So it’s gonna be challenging, but I think that’s why we’re doing this.

Host: Well, it’s a rewarding challenge too. Yes. And, and I think it’s another great opportunity who knows what technologies that we’ll be able to use on earth someday. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and that benefit life for all humans based on what’s being developed now for use with Gateway for use on the moon. I mean, it’s so hard to even fathom how our lives might change just normal people walking around. Right. Based on everything that we develop for these missions.

Aki Hoshide: Absolutely.

Host: So what is something that excites you about returning to the moon?

Aki Hoshide: Um, so I was, I’ve been fortunate to have three space flights, but all three were too low earth orbit. And you can see the earth, it’s beautiful, but you’re so close. You’re just, you know, 400 kilometers, 450 kilometers from, from, uh, the Earth’s surface. Um, I like to see the earth as a, a marble and, uh, you know, we, if you can get to, um, the lunar orbit or lunar surface and see that, that, I think that would be very, very exciting to me. Um, and seeing humanity just reach out, you know, expand the, um, um, our area. Right? Right now it’s low earth orbit. Um, I think, uh, you know, commercial, uh, entities will get there. You know, you’ll have commercial, um, space stations and, uh, if we can get back to the lunar surface and then target the Mars, target going to Mars next, I think that would be very interesting and very exciting for the next generation.

Host: I completely agree. Why, why do you think it’s so important that we are doing this with international partners?

Aki Hoshide: I think right now, um, you know, one nation cannot do it alone, right? The, all the programs are so huge, right? And each and every country has their own, uh, strength and technology, right? So I think by combining those would, uh, help us achieve a goal, you know, uh, and, and, uh, doing this together is a lot of fun, actually. I get to meet a lot of neat people all over the world, and, uh, I think that friendship would last forever.

Host: I think so too. And I think, you know, we can’t always rely on ourselves, each country, to come up with the best and the latest and the smartest, and, um, having the best from each location and each person’s specialty, each country’s specialty. That’s the difference too, in going for Apollo, you know, that was huge. And, and really what the astronauts came back and, and said is, we did this for the world. And I think that’s very true, but this time it is the world doing it for the world. And so

Aki Hoshide: I cannot agree more.

Host: Yeah. I just, it makes me very excited. And I think that’s a difference too, in, in how we are going to have longevity. With these missions and, um, and on the lunar surface and, and with Gateway. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been an incredible conversation and makes me even more excited <laugh> about Gateway, about everything JAXA is doing, about HTVX flying very soon to the International Space Station. Um, and, and really just continuing to pave the way to the moon and eventually to Mars. So thank you so much, Aki.

Aki Hoshide:  Uh, thank you very much for having me here. And, uh, like I said, it’s an exciting time in the Space program, so looking forward to seeing more to come

<Outro Music>

Host:  Thanks for sticking around and I hope you learned something new today. This is the fifth and final in our series of podcasts, talking about Gateway. Check out our previous episodes to learn more about the program and the international efforts to go back to the moon. You can also learn more at nasa.gov/gateway. Our full collection of episodes is on nasa.gov/podcasts. You can also find the many other wonderful podcasts we have across the agency on social media. We are on the NASA Johnson Space Center, pages on Facebook, X, and Instagram. You can use hashtag #askNASA on your favorite platform to submit your idea or ask a question. And just make sure to mention it’s for Houston We have A Podcast. This interview was recorded on December 2nd, 2024. Thanks to Will Flato, Daniel Tohill, Dane Turner, Courtney Beasley, and Dominique Crespo. Special thanks to Chelsey Ballarte and Dylan Connell for helping us plan and set up this interview. And of course, thanks again to Aki Hoshide for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on, and tell us what you think of our podcast. We’ll be back next week.