From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, explore the world of human spaceflight with NASA each week on the official podcast of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Listen to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it possible.

On Episode 259, the Crew-5 astronauts discuss their individual journeys that brought them together on the upcoming fifth crew rotation of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. These interviews were recorded in June and August 2022.

Transcript

Host (Dan Huot): Houston, we have a podcast! Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 259, “The Crew-5 Astronauts.” I’m Dan Huot and I’ll be one of your hosts today. On this podcast we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts all let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight and more. NASA’s Commercial Crew Program continues on, getting ready to launch a crew of four astronauts from NASA, JAXA — the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency — and Roscosmos, the Russian space agency, all together on a U.S. commercial spacecraft on the fifth crew rotation mission to the International Space Station. Each of these four crew members are incredible, high-achieving individuals, and we are fortunate enough to get a couple minutes of their time before their launch. On this episode we’ll hear from each of them: Commander Nicole Mann, Pilot Josh Cassada and Mission Specialists Koichi Wakata and Anna Kikina. We’ll also hear them reflect on their lives, training, their journey to this mission and their anticipation for the upcoming long-duration stay in space. So let’s get right into it. Enjoy.

[Music]

Host: First up is NASA astronaut Nicole Mann, commander of the Crew-5 mission. This will be Mann’s first spaceflight since becoming an astronaut in 2013. As the mission commander, she’s responsible for all phases of flight from launch to re-entry, and she will serve as an Expedition 68 flight engineer while onboard the space station. She was born in Petaluma, California, and is Native American. She earned a bachelor’s degree in mechanical engineering from the U.S. Naval Academy and a master’s degree in mechanical engineering with a specialty in fluid mechanics from Stanford University. She’s a colonel in the U.S. Marine Corps and served as a test pilot in the FA-18 Hornet and Super Hornet. Really cool person to talk to; let’s jump in now to learn more about Nicole Mann.

Host: All right. So we’re sitting down now with Nicole Mann. You’re the commander for the Crew-5 mission to the station. First off, thanks for taking a couple of minutes; I know lead up to the mission, it’s super-hectic, so we’re always super-appreciative anytime we can just get a little bit of time with you guys.

Nicole Mann: Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Host: So I’m going to try and go through the last, you know, 20 years of your life in about ten minutes. And I, I wanted to start with, with schooling. So like a lot of our astronauts, you know, you were, you were an engineer by, by education. What drew you to engineering and ME, mechanical engineering, specifically? I, I went to a school with nothing but engineers, I lived with nothing but MEs. So what, what drew you to that?

Nicole Mann: So then, you know, it’s that obvious choice in life, right?

Host: Oh, it was the clear one.

Nicole Mann: So for me, you know, when I was young, I think it was just math and science that I was really interested in. And so, engineering was a path that I knew pretty early on that I wanted to pursue. Which type of engineering specifically, I didn’t really have that figured out until I was at the Naval Academy my freshman year. And it was some of the experiments that we were able to do, and it was a little more broad brush than just maybe like aero[nautical]. And so, you know, we got to do a lot of work in wind tunnels, but then we also got to do some CAD (computer aided design) design and we got to do some other types of experiments. And so I liked taking it out of the classroom, right? Get, do the theory, learn it, yes, but then let’s put it to practice and let’s actually make something and see, does the theory hold true? Does it really work? That was pretty exciting to me.

Host: So you did that for undergrad and then you went and did your master’s in mechanical, but I saw, so you did a specialty in fluid physics, all…

Nicole Mann: In fluid mechanics, yes.

Host: Fluid mechanics. So every ME that I went to school with, fluid mechanics was just a nightmare. That was the hardest thing. And so, when I saw that, I, did you do the JFK thing and you did the, the thing because, not because it was easy but because it was hard? Why fluids?

Nicole Mann: There might be some truth to that. I’m not sure, but it was, it was challenging, but I had, my professor was Professor (John) Eaton at Stanford University, and we did a, he did a lot of interesting work on turbine blade design and how to improve this flow over the turbine blades. And I started doing some of that research at the Naval Academy. So it kind of fell hand in hand, but it was definitely not easy.

Host: And so, Naval Academy, and then you were, you were going into the Marines, and you ended up becoming a Naval aviator. How, I mean, what kind of planted the bug for that, because you said you didn’t really know what engineering you wanted to do, did, when you were going into the military, did you know I’m going to go fly the plane, I’m going to go fly helicopter. Like, what kind of planted that bug that, no, no, I’m going to go fly F-18s on carriers?

Nicole Mann: So I didn’t know right away, I didn’t have it all figured out. I kind of might be a recurring theme for me, but I knew that I wanted to be a Marine pretty early on at the Naval Academy. I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do, though. But during the summers you have an opportunity to train with the Marine Corps, kind of get a sense of what the different specialties are and try to determine where you think you would, you like to be in and excel. And so, one summer before my senior year, I got a ride in the backseat of an F-18. And I mean, I’ve got to be honest: that was it for me, right? That was the first time for some reason I realized, oh, wait, I can be a Marine and be a fighter pilot. And this is, this is exactly what I would be doing. And I just fell in love it.

Host: And that’s what this feels like?

Nicole Mann: Yeah, that, this is it? It was pretty, pretty incredible. So that’s when I knew, OK, I, I definitely want to pursue aviation in the Marine Corps.

Host: And so, what, what’s the buildup like, because, so, I’ve recently saw a very famous movie with Naval aviators that I’m not going to say the name but everybody can assume what it is, and just seeing people in those planes is just surreal. It looks like the coolest thing you could possibly ever do. What’s the buildup like, because obviously they don’t just, hey, welcome to flight school, here’s an F-18; what’s, what’s kind of the baby steps to build up to finally, you know, getting behind the stick of that plane, flying it out over open water, landing it on a carrier, doing all that crazy stuff?

Nicole Mann: There’s a pretty good build up process. And it takes many, many years before you’re qualified to fly in F-18 off an aircraft carrier. You start in a, in a turboprop plane, which is kind of like a Cessna but much more powerful, and then you move onto small jets, and then you move on to the Hornet. And so it’s maybe three, I guess, different aircraft I went through, specifically; a lot of ground school, a lot of simulators, a lot of training events, and a lot of training flights before you get to that point when you are landing or launching off an aircraft carrier, and those feelings maybe that you had from watching that movie are real. And when I watched it, it brought back this whole, like, world of emotion. And then you think back, oh my gosh, I was in like my mid-20s, flying, you know, jets off the aircraft carrier. It’s, it’s pretty incredible.

Host: Do you remember your first time?

Nicole Mann: Absolutely; absolutely. We, first time flying on the aircraft carrier landing, it’s called carrier qualifications. So you practice at the field over like hours and hours, many hours, the very precise way to land on this, this moving runway. So you practice it at the field, it’s not moving. And then the first time you fly out is in, I was in a T-45 and I’m in a division of aircraft, so four aircraft, and I had never seen an aircraft carrier before in my life. And so, you’re flying formation, you’re running through all the procedures in your brain, but then I’m also kind of like glancing down at the ocean, like, OK, where is it? Where is it? And then you see this boat and it looks tiny down there. And I swear, my heart stopped because I was nervous and excited, and then I realized, oh my gosh, I have to land on this tiny boat. And it’s in the middle of the ocean. So, you know, you, you focus on the procedures and then you, when you roll out behind the boat, it’s called being in the groove, and then you go back to your training, and you fly it. And really, you forget all of it at that moment, right? You’re just super-concentrated. You’ve trained for it. You fly, fly, fly, fly, fly. And then when you hit the boat and the first time you take a trap, I, my legs were shaking just from the pure adrenaline of the entire evolution, and I couldn’t believe that I was now on top of an aircraft carrier. It was pretty cool.

Host: What’s better, takeoff or landing?

Nicole Mann: I think landing’s more violent than takeoff. Takeoff, you know, when you launch it kind of ramps up the gs and then “boom” kicks you forward and then you have a lot to do, really fast, to get ready for your mission. When you land it’s just, usually too, it’s, you know, especially if you’ve been flying a, a combat mission, it could be six, eight hours and you’re exhausted and you have a lot of adrenaline and then you land on that boat and it’s pretty dramatic how quickly you stop, you know? And then you stop and you’re, and you’re safe and you still, I always had a little bit of shake of the legs, just from the adrenaline. But then you still have to taxi and sometimes that’s at night and sometimes you slide on the deck. And so it’s not over. The aircraft carrier, the flight deck’s a very dangerous place. So it’s not over until you’re down in the stateroom.

Host: Then you got to go really slow, don’t bump into anything.

Nicole Mann: Right.

Host: Wow. I mean, it’s, you describe it, it sounds like how I’ve heard spaceflight described by people, like anybody that’s flown in Soyuz. We talked to Koichi, he kind of described, you know, he almost couldn’t tell when Soyuz was lifting off because it was, not gentle but it was just kind of a slow ramp up. But then coming home that landing that, it lets you know that you just landed.

Nicole Mann: Instantaneous, right? Yeah.

Host: You know, you’re back.

Nicole Mann: You don’t want to miss that part.

Host: So, this is your first flight. You’re the first woman to command a Crew Dragon. What are you, I mean, what are you really looking forward to? I’m, I’m sure you’ve watched previous flights, you’re surrounded by people that have done this; what have you kind of picked up that you’re like, I can’t wait to do that?

Nicole Mann: I have talked to, yeah, a lot of people, a lot of astronauts that have flown and heard a lot of stories and you try to kind of think and project and prepare. I don’t know that you ever totally can. But I’m excited to be, you know, sitting on that launch pad with my crew and we have trained together, and we feel confident, but we’ll feel probably a little nervous too and excited. And then that lift off, what, what are those g forces really going to feel like? They’re different from g forces in an aircraft because in the spacecraft they go right through your chest. And then I think that feeling of weightlessness the first time that we unstrap and we’re floating in Dragon and we’re in orbit, and I think looking at the faces of all my crew members, and seeing a smile on their face, the sense of accomplishment that this journey’s actually starting, we actually made it, we left the planet. And then to be honest, everybody always talks about that first time you look back at planet Earth, and I’ve heard people describe it differently: sometimes it’s emotional, sometimes it’s spiritual, but every time anybody ever describes it, it’s just incredible. And I wonder what that’s going to feel like; I wonder what those thoughts are going to be.

Host: I hope you’re going to share that with us.

Nicole Mann: I promise I’ll come back and tell you all about it.

Host: So you, you bring an in — I’m going to use the word incredible because I’ve, I heard you use that word a lot today, because that’s what your life has been. And you bring an incredible passion to all of it. And you said something earlier that I loved, and I just want you to go into this for anybody that’s listening. You said the words, “never cross yourself off that list.” You’ve had to do that to get to where you are today. And I mean, what, what would you really want to tell anybody that’s listening right now that wants to be sitting in this seat about to fly to space for their country, for their agency, for their family, for everybody, what would you want to tell them?

Nicole Mann: I’d want to say that there’s a lot of different ways to become an astronaut, but the one thing that everybody has in common is that they are passionate and love what they do. And if you don’t have that passion and that love, I think it’s going to make it, it’s going to make it more challenging, tough to achieve those goals. And so, more important than really maybe what that goal is or identifying that goal early on as life, it’s identifying what your passion is in life and then just go crush it. And you’re going to see doors like start to open up for you and opportunities. And sometimes you’ll feel maybe nervous or scared about taking those opportunities; you’re going to feel nervous to fail. Nobody wants to fail, but you’ll stumble along the way. I’ve stumbled; everybody stumbles. And when you do, you need to pick yourself back up, learn from whatever mistake you made or whatever you can learn from that; don’t feel shy about asking for help or asking questions, and then push forward and then go after that, that next goal. That next dream.

Host: All right. Nicole Mann, commander of Crew-5, I got to get you let back, I got to let you get back to your training.

Nicole Mann: Back to training.

Host: Back to training. Can’t wait to see you in space and can’t wait to hear what that first look back at Earth is.

Nicole Mann: Well, thanks for taking the time and I look forward to, to telling you about it when I get back.

Host: All Right, thanks.

Nicole Mann: Awesome.

Host: Next up is NASA astronaut Josh Cassada. And this will be Cassada’s first flight since his selection as an astronaut in 2013 as well. As pilot, he’ll be responsible for spacecraft systems and performance, and once on board the space station he’ll serve as an Expedition 68 flight engineer. Cassada grew up in White Bear Lake, Minnesota, and is a physicist and U.S. Navy test pilot. Prior to becoming a Naval aviator, Cassada earned a bachelor’s degree in physics at Albion College in Albion, Michigan, and a doctorate at the University of Rochester, New York, conducting experimental high energy physics research at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Illinois. This is one of the smartest people I’ve ever talked to. Let’s jump in and learn more from Josh Cassada.

Host: OK. Sitting down now with Josh Cassada, not Cassada. And he’s going to be the pilot on SpaceX Crew-5. Josh, thanks for taking a couple minutes out of the busy schedule. I know you got to run off to something immediately after this so we’ll jump right in. I don’t get to talk to too many particle physicists. I get to talk to even fewer astronaut-particle physicists. So what the heck drove you in that direction?

Josh Cassada: Well, first of all, I don’t get to talk to too many particle physicists these days either and I miss it. But, what drove me to particle physics was the fact that it was a just, it seemed like a new, a new adventure that I didn’t quite understand. You know, you don’t know what you’re going to find. Now this happens to be at the subatomic level, but it is, it is a way of exploring, but just at, at a very, very small scale. And the people we worked with, it was a huge experiment, probably 500 researchers, and I think we had just less than 40 different universities from all around the world. So, really cool community to be a part of and, you know, working with some really pretty amazing people and amazing facilities.

Host: What I always try to picture is, and it’s, it’s kind of easy — when I say “easy,” you, you compare it to something like going and flying jets, well they don’t just put you in a jet, they first they put you in like a turboprop or a prop plane, and then you kind of work your way up — what is, what is Intro to Particle Physics look like? Because I feel like anytime you meet somebody, they’ve, they’ve been in the field forever. Like what’s your first job as a particle physicist?

Josh Cassada: Yeah, you’re right. You know, it’s a little bit like running a marathon, right? You know, you got to be able to stand up as a baby and then take your first couple steps and then maybe someday run a mile and then eventually you get 26.2 [miles] under your belt. So, physics is not unlike that; you know, it’s a different language, but what you, once you understand that language, it, it is much more accessible. You know, sometimes that, that language is mathematics and so you need to have that foundation. Sometimes it’s lingo, you know, not unlike finance, right? Sometimes when you realize what’s going on in finance, you go, oh, that’s just a, it’s a, it’s a strange way to phrase that. And those terms tend, in physics at least, tend to be more historical than anything. But once you speak the language, now you can kind of understand the big picture and, and how the universe operates. So early on in physics, yeah, you got to start with Newton, F=ma, and then, and then you realize that’s not quite true, right, and we get into quantum mechanics, and we realize F=ma almost…

Host: Some of the time.

Josh Cassada:…some of the time, exactly. And then you, you, once you get into quantum mechanics you start realizing, oh, this seems counterintuitive, and then a little bit later you realize this is starting to feel a little bit more intuitive — it never completely does — and now you can get to the point where you start working at a, at a fundamental level of, of particle physics.

Host: And you, you had a really cool analogy for, because you did high energy…

Josh Cassada: I did.

Host:…particle physics. So you had a really cool analogy to kind of break that down involving a watch. Can you talk about that again?

Josh Cassada: Yeah. So I was in my first couple years of grad school where you’re focused mostly on coursework, and some research, I was doing research, you know, in the summers or maybe on the holidays, but primarily focused on, in courses. And I was in this advanced quantum mechanics course taught by a high energy physicist, and he was German. And he was explaining high energy physics like it was a watch. And if you want to understand how an old conventional watch works, you would take a small — well, actually he was German, so he said “votch” — but he would take a, a small screwdriver and you would take it apart and, you know, look at all the gears and the springs and the mechanisms and, and understand how the watch works. And he said, but what if you don’t have a screwdriver that’s small enough, what would you do? And we all kind of sat there in silence and he said, you would get 10,000 watches and you would smash each watch up against the wall, and every time you would piece together and collect what came out, and eventually you’re going to figure out how that watch works. And that’s what we do in a high energy physics: we smash watches, but it just happens to be particles, typically particles into other particles, and we can figure out what is going on inside. Now, it’s a giant, giant experiment. It’s really a synthesis of a lot of different detectors that surround that collision, and to catch all that information and we map back and, it’s pretty amazing what we can figure out.

Host: And so, changing gears a little bit, what, what was it like to go from that world to flying planes?

Josh Cassada: You know, it, it does seem like they’re very incongruent.

Host: Yeah.

Josh Cassada: But again, this whole theme of language: I remember my first flight and a T-34 as a, as a student, I didn’t understand a single word. Apparently it was all in English, but I could not understand a single word.

Host: And couldn’t flip through the manual fast enough.

Josh Cassada: Well, it, on the radio is really where it’s hard, right? Because you need to, you need to speak the language and there’s a aviation language, but also being able to, essentially anticipate what they’re trying to tell you. And if you know what kind of message is coming, then, then again, it’s, it’s something that you’re able to decipher, but if you have no idea what’s coming, it, it might as well have been in Russian.

Host: Yeah.

Josh Cassada: So there is, there’s, that’s I think the parallel between the two is that it it’s language. And that allows you now to understand it at a fundamental level. And now you can actually make advances when, when you speak that language.

Host: And so, any, any time we set anybody down who’s flown jets, flown, because you’ve flown dozens of different kinds of aircraft, what’s your favorite plane?

Josh Cassada: Favorite airplane…so, the Navy’s been very, very good to me. I got to do my final project at test pilot school as a student, I fly the, I flew the U-2, which was super-cool. Got to, you know, I think anything above 70,000 feet is classified, and I’ll be honest, I just got to 70,000 feet and just rung the bell to say I did it…pretended like I could see the curvature of the Earth; it was probably the helmet, I don’t know. But then got it down in the pattern. And it is such a handful in the pattern. So, doing touch-and-goes in a U-2, you learn really quickly that this thing was absolutely designed in six months. But, and it was for, you know, for reason, we needed it.

Host: Yeah.

Josh Cassada: So that was a really cool experience. I got to fly the Albatross…you know, a lot of crazy stuff from, from different services from, you know, in, in Europe. But I’m going to be honest, the most fun I’ve had was a little fabric-covered taildragger that my wife and I bought when we lived in Maine. Yeah, it was just 115 horse[power]…

Host: Not breaking the sound barrier.

Josh Cassada:…not even close, not even close. But it was, it was a great way to get around Maine. There’s no straight roads in Maine, so we could get to places, you know, on a weekend, just for like an overnight, that we would’ve never been able to drive to. And it’s just a great way to see the coast. And that is, that was a fun experience because aviation’s super-fun, I love the people that I fly with, but you know what, they all have my same haircut. But to be able to share aviation with my wife and, and now we, we fly with our kids too, to be able to share that with people outside of aviation, that’s really, really rewarding for me.

Host: Started teaching the kids to fly before they can drive?

Josh Cassada: They are anxious to. Yeah. So we, we got a “COVID machine” two years ago, because my wife and kids tend to spend the summers up in Michigan.

Host: Yeah.

Josh Cassada: Because it’s not Houston.

Host: Very understandable.

Josh Cassada: Right. So during COVID I couldn’t get up there, you know, I try to get up when I can for a week or two. So we got a little “air station wagon,” effectively. I’m sure you drive a car that’s worth more than the airplane, but…

Host: Wood-paneled airplane.

Josh Cassada: Exactly. The family truckster, exactly, exactly.

Host: All right. So, so looking ahead, this is your first flight.

Josh Cassada: Yeah.

Host: It’s been, you’ve been, you’ve been ready for this for a while, you’ve been looking forward to it. And you’re flying with one of your classmates who, what it sounds like you guys could probably be world-ranked in the game of Taboo. One of your good friends. What’s, what’s it like to, I mean, everybody’s excited for their first flight, and kind of like you were just talking about flying, it’s, it’s more fun when you have somebody to share it with. What’s it like for your first flight to be with somebody that you know so well?

Josh Cassada: And I think you’ve really hit the nail on the head there. Yeah, to fly with Nicole Mann, who is one of my closest friends on the planet, I, you just can’t ask for a better situation. And yeah, it has been a, a while for, for Nicole and I. You know, flying in space is, is really fun; not flying in space, it turns out, it’s pretty fun too. We’ve been, we’ve been really busy for, for years on pretty much every aspect of the Commercial Crew Program, as well as getting ready for, for space station. But to have all those experiences under our belt and then work together when we’re up there, we, well, I know I’m really excited to fly with her, hopefully she feels the same way about me. But we work really, really well together — unexpectedly, just given the, the way we approach life. But we end up complimenting each other really, really well. And it’s, it’s something I’m really looking forward to.

Host: You have a bucket list that you’re looking forward to, either from flight up, flight down, while you’re on station, anything that you’re, you’ve seen, you’ve heard from other people like, man, I, I got to go do that?

Josh Cassada: Right. So, I know that, that she and I are probably going to be elbowing each other out of the Cupola early on. You know, you can’t, you can never get enough time in the Cupola. But for me the things that I’m looking most forward to, you know, is that, that crew experience, and it’s not something you can really plan for. If you’ve ever made Koichi Wakata laugh, it is, you could power a small city with that. And so, to be up there working hard but also having a good time with it is, is something that, that I think I’m going to cherish for the rest of my life.

Host: All right. Yeah. We heard about your humor a lot already from Koichi, we heard it from Nicole. Koichi…

Josh Cassada: They’re an easy audience.

Host: Well, Koichi said you’ll be cracking jokes in the simulations and you help keep him focused.

Josh Cassada: Oh, is that right?

Host: He’ll, you know, sometimes sim[ulation]s, you’ll have a little bit of delay or you’re just sitting there, you’re just kind of waiting, and he said your jokes will kind of keep him focused so he is not drifting off. So if anything, Josh, your humor might be critical to mission success.

Josh Cassada: Hey Koichi, if you’re listening, be careful what you wish for. Yeah, you know, it’s, it’s fun when we’re, there are times, you’re right, of, of, a lot of quiet and waiting for the next exciting thing to happen, especially when we’re doing pre-launch sims. So knowing this group as, as well as, we know each other, it makes that stuff easy. I know that if I start cracking jokes at T-5 seconds I’m probably going to hear about it from Nicole, so we’ll get it done before that.

Host: The Marine will keep you in line.

Josh Cassada: That’s exactly right.

Host: All right. Well, Josh, pilot of Crew-5, can’t wait to see you up in space. Thanks for taking a couple minutes. We’ll let you get back to the training and look forward to talking to you again when you’re back on the ground.

Josh Cassada: Dan, I really appreciate it. This is super-fun.

Host: Next up, we have JAXA astronaut Koichi Wakata, a mission specialist for Crew-5. And as a mission specialist he’ll work closely with the commander and pilot to monitor the Dragon spacecraft during the dynamic launch and re-entry phases of flight. Wakata will be making his fifth trip into space on his third different spacecraft, making him one of the most experienced astronauts still flying today, and one of the most experienced in spaceflight history. And once he’s on board the International Space Station he’ll be a flight engineer for Expedition 68. This is somebody who’s flown on three different spacecraft, has worked on airplanes, has overseen the International Space Station program for the Japanese space agency. He is an incredible person, has had an incredible career and is looking to put one more entry in with this next flight. Let’s jump right in and hear more from Koichi Wakata.

Host: OK. So joining me now is Koichi Wakata. Koichi, thanks so much. So you’re on the Crew-5 mission and I look at the roster and you’re, you’re kind of the grizzled veteran reading, leading a bunch of rookies, you know, on their first mission with this one. What’s it, what’s it like to be, you know, you’re, you’re the old timer, you’ve done, you’ve been there, you’ve done this before, to be on a crew with just a bunch of first-timers?

Koichi Wakata: That’s right. Yeah. Nice to talk with you, Dan. Yeah, I cannot believe that I’m the only flown crew member on this flight. But my crewmates, really, technically great and capable people and, I don’t believe that they’re rookies. And we are ready and I’m, I just wanted to help them, you know, prepare for a long-duration part of the spaceflight, you know, how to prepare for this, like, preference food items, because it will miss the food that you like. Technically they are really capable, so I’m, I hope I can just help them a little bit for long-duration aspect.

Host: Was there any point you, I mean, did you almost feel like you were another trainer? Were they, were they…

Koichi Wakata: No, no, no; I, I don’t think so, but, you know, something that, that is hard to expect before even my first flight, I never thought, you know, how my body will react in zero gravity and what I will miss and what kind of food I would mishs, these kind of things. So I am, you know, occasionally when we work together and when we eat together, we talk about those things and, hopefully it is some help to them.

Host: So I heard you talked just a little while ago and you, you talked about the first, the first time you, you were leaving the space station and you, you left a bunch of parts and, you know, they were still nice and shiny. Those times you’ve gone back, when you’re, when you’re flying up or when you’re on board, do you ever like go to the window and look and say, oh, like, there, I delivered that truss right there.

Koichi Wakata: Yeah. That’s, yeah, it gives me back all the great memories, the, of course the hardware that we installed on the station, those brings me back good memories, but at the same time what comes to my mind is the people, the faces of the people that I worked with in space and also on the ground at the Mission Control Center. So this is a great teamwork effort, and I am very thankful to all of them who I flew with and who I worked with to make those missions successful.

Host: Now, so you’re, you’re going back to the station. What, what’s it been like to, I mean, there are probably very few people that firsthand have seen it evolve the way you have. I mean, you saw it before we had permanent human presence, you, you were there for long-duration missions – two already, you’re going up again. Is it, I mean, is it almost like going to your house and discovering a whole ‘nother wing has been built every time you go back? I mean, you, you’ll have seen this thing across three different decades.

Koichi Wakata: That’s right. First time when I visited it was the ISS-3A mission, STS-92; at the time nobody was living on the station. So when we entered space station it was like a completely new house, a new car with a smell of, I don’t know, whatever new, you know, things that you could smell in your house. And there was no smell of human at the time. And my second time when I visited the space station we already had the human presence for about nine years. So it’s totally different. And it was really like a house that the people have lived for a long time. And then, and at the time we only had three crew member on a permanent basis to stay. And on the third time when I visited there as a Expedition crew member we have already six crew members on the space station. It was a different, those are very different phases of the space station, but the components, computers, hardwares, they are working perfectly. So it’s unbelievable. It’s amazing establishment of humanity.

Host: So aside from, you know, flying in Dragon, is there anything on station you’re, you’re looking for, anything new that got added, anything, any, any unfinished business you have from your previous flights that, you know, you’re really looking forward to getting up there and seeing?

Koichi Wakata: Well, a lot of new utilization now. We’re really focusing on the technology demonstration of our mission beyond low-Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, like, new water recycle system. JAXA is also developing a new one that we are now testing onboard the space station. So a new technology for the advanced exploration systems. And those are really interesting part that, that I’m really interested in taking part in, like testing a new toilet for the Orion, for example. And I had an opportunity to operate all the robotic system onboard the space station, shuttle as well. But I didn’t have, each time I flew on a long-duration flight I was trained and certified to go to a spacewalk, but I didn’t have a chance to do it. So this time I really hope that I have a chance to go out and then, hoping to add the new components of the solar arrays. Those are enhancing the capabilities of the electrical power generation. And so, that’s some of the things that I’m looking forward to.

Host: And so, just quick, compare/contrast, this is now, not counting space station, Dragon will be your third spacecraft that you’ve, that you’ve flown on. What’s it been like getting, because again, you’re kind of seeing spaceflight across the decades, you trained on shuttle, you trained on Soyuz which is a system that’s, you know, been in use for decades itself, then you trained on the brand-new Dragon. What’s it been like to make that transition through your career?

Koichi Wakata: I, I witnessed the development, improvement of the space shuttle cockpit, for example, even in the space shuttle itself.

Host: Oh yeah.

Koichi Wakata: Yeah.

Host: Going to the glass…

Koichi Wakata: The glass, the glass cockpit, MEDS cockpit (Multi-function Electronic Display System), and I, my first flight, of course, it was not a non-MEDS flight, and then the second time was non-MEDS but third flight was a MEDS flight and I saw this improvement and make it more user-friendly. And Soyuz is also, I, actually I had an opportunity to fly two different Soyuz. One for just orbital flight during relocation, so it’s TMA-14, and then the, when I launched on the Soyuz it was Soyuz TMA-11M that had more glass cockpit type. So each spacecraft has been improving itself inside. Although from outside, it doesn’t look newer, but inside of a cockpit, and software, it’s improved every time we fly. And so I, I witnessed all this change on the spacecraft interior, especially the cockpit control capabilities and then, but Dragon is totally new. It’s, space shuttle and Soyuz have all kinds of switches, but Dragon is as if you are flying the spacecraft with a tablet computer, and with a very limited number of switches and it’s all flat screen. It’s so nice looking and it’s so clean looking.

Host: Feels futuristic.

Koichi Wakata: Yeah, very futuristic. Even the, the spacesuit itself. So I’m, I am very looking forward to seeing the real difference while, you know, we are on orbit.

Host: Yeah. All right. So time for one more question. So I, I go through your spaceflight resume, I see all the different jobs you’ve had. You’ve basically written the book on flying a robotic arm; you’ve been chief of operations branches; you’ve done all these things. You also spent time, though, as the JAXA space station program manager. How jealous are your fellow program managers that you get to fly on the space station? Joel Montalbano is our NASA one; does, does, does he ever get jealous when you guys sit in, in meetings and…

Koichi Wakata: That’s, yes, I, when I was serving as a program manager for JAXA of the ISS program, Kirk Shireman was a manager here and then I worked with Joel a lot when he was a flight director and then deputy manager and now program manager. So I, each job assignment that I had taught me a lot, and I’m very thankful. For me, Kirk and Joel they’re the great leaders of the space station program. I learned a lot from them. So, it was a challenge for me. I, I don’t think I, I was trained to be manager, but so, it was like drinking from fire hose for me every time when I’m assigned to a new job. I remember when I was assigned as the Astronaut Office ISS operations branch [chief], Peggy Whitson was the chief of the Astronaut Office at that time and she gave me that position, but, oh, that was a very busy job. But I learned a lot, how to work with all the international partners of the space station program, and that really helped me to serve as a commander of the space station Expedition 38/39 at the time. So all the jobs that I was given by my managers, I really appreciate; it was tough each time, but looking back, those are the times that I acquired new knowledge and skills. So I’m very thankful to the great leaders.

Host: All right. Well, Koichi Wakata, thanks for sitting down with us. I know we got to get you back to some training, so we’re going to let you go.

Koichi Wakata: Thank you.

Host: Really excited to see you up there on Crew-5.

Koichi Wakata: Thank you, Dan. Great to be here.

Host (Pat Ryan): Hi, it’s Pat Ryan. I’m sticking my nose in here because there’s one more member of the Crew-5 crew, and Dan wasn’t available the day she came to the studio, so I got to talk to her — ha! Anna Kikina has been a Roscosmos cosmonaut for ten years but is making her first spaceflight on the Crew Dragon Endurance. She’ll be a mission specialist during that flight and then a flight engineer as part of Expedition 68 on the International Space Station. She was born and raised in Novosibirsk in western Siberia and earned a degree from a college in that same town to become a hydraulics engineer, but she first found work teaching and coaching kids, and then as a radio host and program director before becoming a cosmonaut. Meet Anna Kikina.

Host: Anna Kikina, welcome to Houston and welcome to Houston We Have a Podcast. It’s great to get to talk to you today.

Anna Kikina: Thank you very much. I’m here and glad to be here also.

Host: The first question is one I often ask of people who are about to make their first spaceflight: how do you feel about what is about to happen to you?

Anna Kikina: Naturally, I’m very happy about what’s happening to me in my life right now. And I’m anticipating my mission. I’ve been training for it for ten years. I’ve been here for such a long time. I’m really ready.

Host:You grew up in, in a town in western Siberia, is that right? And you even stayed in Novosibirsk for university, right?

Anna Kikina: Absolutely. That’s exactly right. I graduated from university in Novosibirsk.

Host: What did you study there? What was, what was your profession going to be?

Anna Kikina: So I’m a hydraulics engineer and I was trained to work with risks on different water engineering objects, facilities. So I was protecting for emergencies at different facilities, industrial facilities, but my life changed radically.

Host: Now I understand that you, you went off into other different careers, right, including in, in working in radio. I find that’s interesting because I used to work in radio too.

Anna Kikina: Well, if you want to hear about my radio experience, yes, indeed. That was part of my life. I trained and worked at the radio station, including being a radio host. It was super-interesting. I loved it to be on air and I had to work with a control panel there. It had so many buttons and faders and switches, multiple screens. I absolutely loved it. So whatever, what I did there it actually prepared me to become a cosmonaut. It was a very complex operator experience. You had to work with your hands and speak and think at the same time. And it was all real time.

Host: Right. Right. Now, I understand that it was while you were working in radio that you applied to become a cosmonaut. Tell us how that story happens, because when I worked in radio I would never have thought of becoming an astronaut, but, but for you it worked.

Anna Kikina: Right; you and I had different experiences, I guess. So in my case, when I started working at the radio station, the girl who was preparing the news shared with me the information that the very first open astro, cosmonaut selection in Russia was announced. So any Russian citizen who satisfied certain requirements could apply. And that’s when I realized that that’s exactly what I wanted to try myself in and that’s what I wanted to do, and that’s what I wanted to be. So, I was 27 and it was then that I realized that.

Host: You were selected as a cosmonaut about ten years ago and, and you’ve done many of the things that all the cosmonauts do, but I also noticed that you were part of the SIRIUS (Scientific International Research in Unique Terrestrial Station) experiment back in 2017 and, and that was kind of living in isolation and, and using VR (virtual reality) technology. What was that like?

Anna Kikina: You’re right. Back in 2017 I was a member of the SIRIUS experiment, which is a ground isolation experiment. I was happy to participate. Personally, I think it was one of the crucial stages of my mission preparation. Not everybody has a chance to go through such an experiment. It was a great chance for me. The environment was very mission similar: we were in a closed environment with tons of experiments to do, and some of them will actually be continued and I will actually perform them on board. And it was great that I already learned about them then. So I had a lot of crew interaction. It was great experience.

Host: At this, at this point, I understand you are the only woman who is a, a cosmonaut in the, the, among the Russian cosmonauts. Are you hoping that there will be more?

Anna Kikina: Of course. Of course. I, not only do I hope but I do believe that it is normal and it will happen. There will be more female crew members. For now we have very few, but I think that in the near future this trend will continue, and the next crew selection will have female candidates and we’ll have female cosmonauts. In our case, about 25% of all applicants are female.

Host: You are getting prepared for your first flight to space. That’s got to be very exciting. What, what was it like when you received the assignment to fly?

Anna Kikina: I was surprised. I had a lot of thoughts coming into my head at the same time. It was an uncharted territory for me. It was something exotic, but with time, and actually quite quickly, things started developing and my training proceeded very quickly. It never stopped regardless of the agreement between the agencies. So it was super-interesting. I was glad to go through different stages, to try new things. I have gone through 100% training on the Soyuz, and I thought that I would fly on Soyuz; I was a backup crew actually to fly from Baikonur. But as soon as I came back from Baikonur, everything changed entirely for me. And I’m glad about that. I love both vehicles. I love Soyuz, I love our space program, but at the same time I’m happy and anticipating my Crew-5 Dragon mission with my crew.

Host:Tell me why it is do you, what is it that we are learning from these space missions that makes it so important to do?

Anna Kikina: Well, space environment is considered to be hostile to humans. But I think that that’s why maybe in spite of that, people want to learn more about that. They want to know how they can live there, how they can work there. Humans are curious and they want to know more, so we can explore our planet further. And it’s yet another space for us. It is no less complex than the space we fly to. If people have will, they will pursue the path of progress.

Host:Anna Kikina, good luck on your mission to the International Space Station, and have a lot of fun there.

Anna Kikina: Thank you so very much for your support, all the best to you. And we’ll talk to each other later.

[Music]

Host (Dan Huot): And thanks for sticking around. I hope you learned something today about these incredible people about to make their way into outer space. As always, check NASA‘s website for the latest schedule to find out how you can watch the launch of these four individuals live on NASA TV and the different streaming services. As always, head over to NASA.gov/podcasts to go through the expansive library of Houston We Have a Podcast episodes to learn everything you could possibly ever want to know about human spaceflight. And follow us on social media for all the Johnson Space Center accounts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and use that hashtag #AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea and make sure to mention it’s for Houston We Have a Podcast and we’ll try to make it into a future episode. These interviews were recorded in June and August 2022. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Will Flato, Beth Weissinger, Pat Ryan, Heidi Lavelle, Belinda Pulido, Gary Jordan, and Jaden Jennings, and to the astronaut schedulers for helping to secure these chats. And of course, thanks to our Crew-5 crew, Nicole Mann, Josh Cassada, Koichi Wakata and Anna Kikina, for their time. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on and tell us what you think of the podcast. We’ll be back next week.