“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, the home of human spaceflight, stationed in Houston, Texas. We bring space right to you! On this podcast, you’ll learn from some of the brightest minds of America’s space agency as they discuss topics in engineering, science, technology and more. You’ll hear firsthand from astronauts what it’s like to launch atop a rocket, live in space and re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere. And you’ll listen in to the more human side of space as our guests tell stories of behind-the-scenes moments never heard before.

Episode 17 features Nujoud Merancy, Mission Planning and Analysis Lead for the Orion spacecraft, who talks about what Orion is, how it will work, what kinds of tests are being done, and where in space it will go. This episode was recorded on September 13, 2017.

Transcript

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 17: Orion. I’m Gary Jordan and I’ll be your host today. So this is the podcast where we bring in the experts– NASA scientists, engineers, astronauts– all to let you know all the coolest information about NASA. So today we’re talking about the Orion spacecraft with Nujoud Merancy. She’s the Mission Planning and Analysis Lead here at the NASA johnson space center in Houston, Texas for the Orion spacecraft. And we had a great discussion about Orion– what it is, how it will work, and where in space it will bring humans to explore. So with no further delay, let’s go light speed and jump right ahead to our talk with Mrs. Nujoud Merancy. Enjoy.

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Host: Okay, well, Nujoud, thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast. I’m honestly kind of surprised that we haven’t done an Orion episode so far. I mean, we’ve hinted at it, but we really haven’t gotten down and like said what is Orion. So thanks for coming on today.

Nujoud Merancy: Ah, you’re welcome. I’m glad to be here.

Host: Absolutely. So, honestly, that’s kind of what I wanted to do today, is just kind of hone in– what is Orion? The general overview. So let’s just start with that. If you could describe it in a nice, overarching birdseye view, what is Orion?

Nujoud Merancy: Orion is supposed to be America’s next crew vehicle for beyond low earth orbit. So really, the point is to return to exploration, which we really haven’t done since Apollo days, right? We had the space shuttle and the space station, and they’re doing amazing science and research, but they stayed in low earth orbit. So to actually get out of low earth orbit is a challenge we haven’t had in 40 years, and that’s where Orion and the space launch system rocket comes in.

Host: All right, okay. So yeah, we could talk a little bit about both, but Orion is the spacecraft. That’s the one that’s actually going to carry the people.

Nujoud Merancy: Right, Orion has the people, yes. We’re– and of course, I’m Orion. So we’re the most important, of course. [ laughter ]

Host: All right, so let’s just focus on the most important part, then, right? Let’s focus on Orion. So I mean, what does it look like? If you had no idea what Orion looked like, how would you describe it?

Nujoud Merancy: So Orion’s got several pieces. So each one is a little different, right? When you stack it all together, we have a launch abort tower on top. So that’s only there for the first part of ascent.

Host: Okay.

Nujoud Merancy: And so– but we get rid of that once we’re high enough up in the atmosphere that we don’t need it. But so when you get down to it, what the pieces that will actually fly in space look like is a capsule shape very similar to Apollo. We’re actually using the same angle on the back shell that Apollo did.

Host: Oh, wow.

Nujoud Merancy: And that’s because physics don’t change, so the reentry aerodynamics are the same regardless of what decade it is.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And then there’s the service module, which is really a barrel structure on the back end with four solar arrays hanging off the sides. So that’s the real heart of Orion that does the mission in deep space.

Host: Okay, yeah. I’m imagining a capsule with a barrel attached.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah. [ laughter ]

Host: But definitely, I mean, honestly, if you’re listening and you don’t know what it looks like, definitely look it up. It’s pretty cool. And you have a lot of different models of Orion, right? Because there’s the one that’s going to fly, but then you’re using a bunch of different ones for testing, right?

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, of course. So everything we do, we have to test before we fly it.

Host: Sure, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So we go through a whole bunch of different pieces, right? So we built the structural test article, which they do vibration testing and acoustic testing on, and they put loads on it to make sure there are no stresses that we weren’t calculating. Because you have to prove that the structure we built is strong enough to survive.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: You have to validate all of the analysis and designs you did. And then there’s ones we use for drop tests. There’s flight test versions. There’s ones we drop in the ocean that the crew gets out of. There’s a mockup in building 9 here at JSC which is the interior is all accurate so that the astronauts can be trained in there, and the designers can see where things lay out, because it’s a lot different being there and putting your hands on it than it is to just have a cad model on a computer screen.

Host: Definitely.

Nujoud Merancy: So you can’t– you’ve got to make sure your vent doesn’t go where your hand controller is, and stuff like that.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So– and we have lots of different versions of Orion, really.

Host: And I feel like that one, the mockup version, would be good just for ergonomics, right? Just to see where things are pointing. And you’re right, you could do a computer simulation, but once you sit down a human in there, you really can find a lot of stuff out, right?

Nujoud Merancy: And we really do. The astronauts come in and do testing with us. We put a suit on them, they get in the seats, and then they actually tell us where the hand controller needs to be so they can reach it while they’re seated during launch. Because you can calculate the length of someone’s arm, but you don’t really know how comfortable that is for a variety of people.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So the point of having a mockup is the astronauts themselves get to have input on the design for where things go.

Host: Nujoud Merancy: Ah, okay. So honing in on that just a little bit, I mean, that’s– just because it’s a NASA johnson space center thing, we have a facility here, building 9, right, the space vehicle mockup facility. And we have something very similar on the international space station, right, mockups of one-to-one scale versions of what you would find on the international space station, but it kinds of gives you a lay of the land, in a way.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, it’s the same concept that’s been used for decades. And building 9 sort of evolves with the programs. I think they did Apollo work in it way back in the day, and then it had a space shuttle, and now it has ISS and Orion and the commercial crew vehicles all in there. So it’s kind of a cool facility. It’s like a playground for spaceships. But yeah, that’s where the astronauts and everyone can get in and really see what’s going on.

Host: Yeah, and so for Orion, I mean, that’s a lot of different types, and they all serve a different purpose. So is there so many because there’s just different things that you have to pay attention to? Are you doing multiple tests in different locations? Like what’s the logic behind having so many test articles?

Nujoud Merancy: Well, the different test articles are really built for that specific function, right?

Host: Ah, I see.

Nujoud Merancy: Like we don’t’ need to build a complete Orion. That would be very expensive. So you build one that’s structurally accurate, and you go do all the structures testing, but you don’t mount all the avionics and computers and things like that in it. They don’t need to be there for that kind of testing.

Host: Exactly.

Nujoud Merancy: And when we build the one in building 9, we don’t really build the right shell, because that’s really expensive. So we build basically a plastic– and we’ve used 3d printed parts to represent that shell, but you really want the inside to be accurate. And it doesn’t have to be functional, but you need the box the right shape, for example.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So we use different ones because first off, you need to do a lot of that testing in parallel. We can’t just build one and have it move from facility to facility. But you build each mockup or test article so it’s purposed for that, and we can have a lot of things going on at once– and there is a lot of things going on at once.

Host: Sounds like it, absolutely. So I mean, is there a version right now that exists that has all the different parts together?

Nujoud Merancy: No, but we’re building– the real exploration mission 1 Orion is already under construction at the operations and checkout building at the Kennedy Space Center.

Host: All right!

Nujoud Merancy: So the real Orion crew module is already there, and I think part of the crew module adapter is there. So they’re actually starting to put the real pieces together. And the only complete vehicle will be the one you fly.

Host: All right, yeah. So that one’s going to be for– I mean, it’s another test, but really it’s complete, right?

Nujoud Merancy: Right.

Host: So em-1– I mean, we can skip around. I know we have like kind of a model of how we want to have this go, but I mean, em-1, what is that? That’s another flight test, right?

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so exploration mission 1 really kind of is the ultimate flight test. It has everything but the people.

Host: Ah!

Nujoud Merancy: And some of the equipment the crew needs, right? We’re not putting the complete life support system on because the crew isn’t on there.

Host: Sure.

Nujoud Merancy: But the rest of the vehicle, for all intents and purposes, is complete. So that is the ultimate flight test, so, right, even though we’re doing all this testing on the ground we’ve still got one giant test to do in space because things don’t always work in space like they do on the ground. So we do have to really finish the testing in space before we put crew on. So exploration mission 1 is that first uncrewed flight test before we give it the thumbs up to put people on.

Host: There you go. And you have all the different tests coming together, right, so you have all that vibration testing, the structural tests, all the ones you were hinting at, the interior whatever– all jam packed into this one everything works, here it is mission. So– except the people, obviously.

Nujoud Merancy: Right.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And it’s a model used across all sorts of different programs, right– aerospace industry, other spacecraft. Everyone has to do testing before you’re ready to put people on something.

Host: Yeah. Okay, and the mission profile– we can get into it later in the podcast too, but the mission profile is what? Where is it going to go?

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re intending to send exploration mission 1 out to the moon in what’s called a distant retrograde orbit. So distant meaning we’re really high up from the moon, so high altitude orbit around the moon.

Host: Oh, okay.

Nujoud Merancy: And retrograde means you actually orbit opposite the direction the moon is doing.

Host: Oh, okay.

Nujoud Merancy: So if you looked at the moon from the north pole of earth, it’s moving counterclockwise, and our orbit around the moon is moving clockwise, so that’s the retrograde. So that’s the distant retrograde orbit. It’s a very stable orbit. It doesn’t require a lot of propulsion to get into and out of, and so that’s why we’re just using it– it’s a good stand-in to do testing and have a steady state condition to make sure we’re testing everything out. So that’s our destination, but the whole mission should be between 26 and 42 days long, so we have lots of time to test things out. And then when we come back to earth we’re going to do a 25,000 mile per hour reentry and do the entire entry with all the heat shield and everything you need to confirm it’s working and all our models are right before the crew flies.

Host: Oh, wow, okay. So I’m thinking when you were talking about that mission profile, the one that came to mind was Apollo 8. That one had people on it, right?

Nujoud Merancy: It did.

Host: But it went around the moon and then came back, but it didn’t land on the moon.

Nujoud Merancy: Right, Apollo 8 didn’t land on the moon. So all of the Apollo missions, they had a very defined target: land on the moon.

Host: Obviously, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So if you go back through all the Apollo missions that led up to it, each one achieved another objective towards the moon landing.

Host: Yes, all stepping stones, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And Apollo 8 was the first demonstration of actually sending a vehicle from earth to the moon and proving that that could be done.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So it had people on board. They didn’t have as much advanced computers and communications that we have now, so they could not have achieved that mission without people onboard.

Host: Oh, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: We can now with computers, so that’s why we can do this as an uncrewed demonstration before we put people on.

Host: Okay, so is it similar– is it like– I don’t know the exact details, but did Apollo 8 also do a retrograde orbit?

Nujoud Merancy: So Apollo 8, yes, it was retrograde, but they did go down to a low lunar orbit. So they were within 100 kilometers of the surface.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And we’ll fly by it 100 kilometers from the surface just when we’re doing the powered fly-by, but we’re not going into a low orbit like that.

Host: So we’re– yeah, this is a bigger– it’s kind of elliptical, too, right? It’s going to go way out past the moon?

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, it’s 70,000 kilometers on the far side of the moon.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re way past where any of the Apollo missions went. And that’s because we’re working towards a gateway architecture in the future of a staging ground for development of mars missions and things like that. So it’s a different purpose than actually an objective to land on the moon.

Host: But it’s kind of the same thing in Apollo 8 where before you can land on the moon, before you can get to your deep space objective, you need to make sure that everything works first. So it’s just another test.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, and Apollo had multiple flights in low earth orbit before they even went and did Apollo 8. So they had several uncrewed flights, and then Apollo 7 was actually the first crewed flight, and it stayed in low earth orbit before Apollo 8. So they got to have lots of test flights. So we’re relying on a little bit leaner of a test flight strategy because we can do more ground testing right now.

Host: And like you said, we have the technology where we can collect the date we need without–

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so I mean, Apollo’s computers were something like– you know, less power than those calculator watches, right? So there was only so much that they could do. That was– they really invented computers and microprocessors and stuff like that weren’t really around yet. So now we’ve got super advanced computers. We can automate a lot of stuff in software that you could’ve never done in the Apollo days. So we’re actually automating a lot of the vehicle in software so that critical actions like burns can be done without ground intervention.

Host: Oh.

Nujoud Merancy: Because some of those burns happen on the far side of the moon where you have no contact with earth.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’ve got to be able to have that software onboard the vehicle, whereas for Apollo those were literally manually conducted burns where the astronauts were triggering the engines and stuff. So I mean, that’s one example of why we can do that without people now, and they could not have done that on Apollo.

Host: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, going back to Orion, we started talking about the whole overall view of it and how it’s kind of structured and shaped. Let’s kind of go inside for a second. How many people can go in Orion?

Nujoud Merancy: So we can take up to four people. That’s what our design is for. But Apollo did three. But we’ve got way more room still inside for the crew, because with the advances in structure, right? So we can use carbon fiber structure, and our computers are obviously much smaller than they were in the ’60s.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So space-wise the crew has a lot of room to move around. You can actually stand full height if you’re standing on the back plane where the lockers are in the docking tunnel. So you can stand up in Orion.

Host: Wow.

Nujoud Merancy: And in Apollo, you really only sort of had three beds or chairs where they got into when they launched, and your space was basically arm’s reach between your back and the control panel.

Host: Tight squeeze.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’ve got a little bit more comfortable ride for the crew, but it’ll still be a long haul on a long mission.

Host: Is that the logic behind the design, too? Is it for comfort, or is there other stuff that you’re trying to put in there? Because now you have smaller computers, more space, more people– what else– what’s the logic behind it?

Nujoud Merancy: It’s not so much comfort, but to support a little bit longer mission. So we should be able to do 21 days– 4 crew for 21 days in just Orion.

Host: Wow.

Nujoud Merancy: So when you think about how much food and clothing and personal hygiene space you need for stuff like that, there’s actually rules that NASA has about how much volume per crew member that you need. So we’re meeting those requirements. So for a three-week mission you need a little bit more volume if that’s the only space you have to move around in. So we’re meeting those requirements. It’s not like we’re designing for comfort– we’re designing to achieve those exploration goals and making sure humans are comfortable and can achieve the mission safely.

Host: Well, I think having a lot of space, a little extra legroom, and enough food for the whole mission, I think, is pretty much all comfort stuff.

Nujoud Merancy: Kind of important to be able to eat.

Host: Kind of, yeah. Okay, so we’re talking about 21 day missions, we’re talking about going outside the moon. Is this– can this be a low earth orbit vehicle, or is that not part of the vehicle? Like can it go to the international space station?

Nujoud Merancy: So when Orion was first conceived it was supposed to be able to do both ISS and lunar orbit. But we’ve since moved on past that. We’re now trying to do the commercial crew program to really go to ISS.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And it’s really kind of having vehicles designed for different purposes, right? You can drive to work in your giant 4×4 pickup with a camper and stuff like that. And that’s like Orion, right?

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: Big camping trip, lots of supplies, things like that. You could go to the ISS in it, but it’s not a good use of the vehicle, right?

Host: Ah, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: We’re trying to do the exploration objectives, so we’ve got a lot more stuff and a lot more capability. And it’s better to use it for exploration, and then the commercial crew can design for the specific vehicle– it’s like your civic you drive to work in. You only need a car to get to the space station. You need a big truck with all your camping supplies to do exploration. So there’s really a purpose difference. So yes, you could go to ISS with it, but that’s not really what we’re trying to do.

Host: I love that analogy, by the way. I mean, as much as I would love to take a class a trailer to work every day– [ laughter ] that’d be pretty awesome. It would be a total waste of time and money and resources.

Nujoud Merancy: It’s a little bit of overkill for the mission you’re trying to do.

Host: Exactly, that’s a perfect way of describing it. So I mean, you’re talking about an RV, a camper, pretty much, but a space version that’s going to go way out. So you’re going to be going on these big space camping trips, you’re going to need a lot of food and stuff. Is it going to be similar to international space station food? Are you designing a sort of– I don’t know how to describe it, but a– is it going to be different from international space station, or are you taking some of those lessons?

Nujoud Merancy: I think they’re using a lot of the same foods from the space station. I mean, the crew, they’ve done a lot of testing on what food they get at the space station. Now, Orion, we’re a lot more space constrained and mass constrained because whatever we put on, whatever pound you put on the vehicle, you’ve got to send that to the moon. So that’s more prop, more resources, more space.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So I think they’ve done a lot more advanced work on energy bars, basically. So compact– you know, there’s like 700 or 800 calories in a bar.

Host: Wow.

Nujoud Merancy: That’s a whole meal replacement. Now, I can fit that in Orion so at least once a day I think they’ll have these energy bars versus a whole meal with the– even the freeze dried food they’ll still have, but we are trying to condense down a little bit of what we can take because we have to fit it in a smaller vehicle.

Host: Oh, okay, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: But the food scientists are still doing a lot of work, and we’re building off of what ISS had.

Host: Yeah. I mean, it’s that whole idea of “mass is money.” So you’ve got a certain amount of weight that you’ve got to plan for, so you’ve got to make sure that meals are really tiny and don’t take up a lot of space but are jam packed full of calories and can really meet those caloric needs that the astronauts need.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, and in getting out of low earth orbit and getting to the moon, I think you need like ten times the amount of prop do that, right?

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: You need so much prop to get into low earth orbit, and then you need ten times that to leave low earth orbit. So it has a multiplying effect for every pound you add. So one pound, getting it to ISS is “easy,” quote unquote, but you need that much more for every pound you send to the moon.

Host: Right, yeah. I like that quote unquote, because going to space is not an easy thing.

Nujoud Merancy: Absolutely not.

Host: But now you’re planning for things that have this tenfold factor.

Nujoud Merancy: Right.

Host: So pretty crazy. So what about– I mean, going back inside, you said they have plenty of room to sleep and stuff. What about– is exercise a concern? Because I know exercise, they have to do it almost two, two and a half hours a day on the space station. Are they going to have something similar for these 21 day missions?

Nujoud Merancy: So we do have to fit in an exercise device. We’re really trying to get them to give us a really compact exercise device.

Host: Ah.

Nujoud Merancy: Because you’ve got room, but you’re going to be trying to do exercise with three people around you in a small cabin, and trying to do a pull up and you’ll be smacking your crew member in the face, right? So we’re trying to work on a compact exercise device, and they have ways to do that. You really need a lot of exercise equipment when you’re doing long duration missions like on ISS. So six months, they’ve got the treadmill, they’ve got this thing called the red, or ARED, which is like a weight lifting device. So when you’re doing long duration missions you need a lot of exercise equipment. That stuff doesn’t fit in Orion.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: You need some short term, smaller, compact exercise equipment in Orion. And then if you build a gateway around the moon kind of like a mini station, then you need to put your big exercise equipment on that for a longer mission.

Host: Ah, okay.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’ve all got to sort of do our part in our peaks.

Host: Yeah. So I mean, 21 days is a little bit short of a mission. I know that they have these exercise requirements on the international space station because there’s some certain things that happen in the body over a six-month time. Is there things you know of that happens to the body in a 21-day time? And I’m sure you’re planning for that in your exercise equipment, but what does that look like for the human body in space?

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so I know from the surgeons and the medical doctors, they see degradation in the human body even over just two to three weeks.

Host: Oh, wow.

Nujoud Merancy: So even over a short time frame, like, say, the shuttle flights– same thing. The crew was still doing exercises even though the mission was only a couple weeks long so they didn’t come back deconditioned with muscle loss and things like that.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’ve still got to do that. So they do see deconditioning in the human body within a week of being in orbit. So you can’t let it go and ignore it, but you don’t have to do as much as a six-month mission.

Host: Right, yeah. So I mean, you talked about it being sort of a space camper, space RV. That’s a great way to describe the vehicle that’s meant for, like you said, the mission of going out into deep space. What else about Orion makes it a good vehicle for those type of mission, for deep space missions?

Nujoud Merancy: So one of the things with Orion that’s very hard to do but we’re trying to is we make it capable of a lot of different orbits, or destinations, or mission timelines, right? So we need to be able to handle the DRO. We’re looking at other kinds of orbits so whatever crops up in the future, Orion can support. So we’re trying to build in some flexibility.

Host: Ah.

Nujoud Merancy: And then the other key piece of Orion is to be able to abort and come home.

Host: Ah.

Nujoud Merancy: So if you have a problem, we need to be able to turn around and get the crew back, and do that within a few days. When you come back from the space station if there was an emergency, it’s a matter of hours. It’s like one to three hours, and you can be on the ground. So it’s not like a true emergency you’ve got to have tons of supplies. But the fastest you can get home from the moon is three to five days.

Host: Okay.

Nujoud Merancy: So you have to have, in an emergency, still have the supplies onboard, the vehicle capable of– if you, say, lose an oxygen tank, you’ve got to have another one to be able to survive the multiple day trip home. So that’s the kind of challenges, is we need to be able to get out there, and then we also need to be able to safely come home.

Host: Wow, so it’s redundancy, but then you already hinted at before that mass is money. And you only have a certain amount of mass– now you have to build in these redundancies. Now the things that you can put on the vehicle are restricted. I can see how this can really spiral, all these challenges.

Nujoud Merancy: It is, it’s a big snowball effect.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: It’s how many emergencies do you protect for, what are all the different scenarios that you can think of that you need to cover for. And then at some point you have to just realize there’s risk.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: It is a risky thing to do to send people to the moon, and at some point you have to draw the line and say, “okay, these are the risks that we have to take to do this at all.”

Host: Yeah, you have to accept the risk because you’re right– this is new. That’s the whole part of exploring, right, is you’re trying to– there’s only so much that you can just plan for because you have to be in discovery mode, too.

Nujoud Merancy: Right. So we try to build in redundancies to cover for a variety of causes, but at some point you’re done– you can’t put five oxygen tanks onboard just in case, right?

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: We’ve got to make sure we know what we’re designing for and try to cover the situations we can plan for.

Host: Yeah. So you hinted at before that it’s comparable to the Apollo capsule. So how is it similar, how is it different?

Nujoud Merancy: So similar, the shape. Obviously– you can look at it. We draw a lot from those lessons learned from Apollo. The shape of the capsule is the same. We both have a service module. But then we’ve had a lot of advances in the structures and the computers and things like that, and then a few other things. Apollo used fuel cells, had a very short mission lifetime possible as a result. We’re using solar arrays, which will enable longer duration missions, because once you go over a few weeks’ mission duration, your solar arrays will continue generating power. It’s free energy from the sun.

Host: Yeah!

Nujoud Merancy: So that’s like another obvious difference in the two things. And then we’re using things like we have a– it’s called an encapsulated service module. We put fairings on to protect the solar arrays during launch because of the aerodynamics of the wind that would rip them off.

Host: Oh, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And so then we jettison the fairings on ascent. So Apollo didn’t have that. Their service module was the external structure.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So there’s a few other differences, right– we have a big launch abort tower on top. Apollo did as well. I think ours we’ve designed a little bit different. But all in all it’s still– the shape is very much the same. And we can do longer, right? The 4 people, 21 days. Apollo was 3 crew for like 14, stuff like that. And then we’re designed to be able to dock with other things. So when we start building a habitat or something, you can be out there for months at a time.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So once you have another habitat, then Orion with its solar arrays can just hang out and wait through longer missions.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re trying to build in a multi-month capability in a quiescent state so you can do long duration missions out near the moon. And that is not something Apollo could have done.

Host: Yeah. So if you were to just look at it, you’d be like, “yeah, it’s big Apollo.” But it’s these little details that are really make or break, yeah, for the mission. I mean, if you don’t have this sort of– I mean, if it doesn’t jettison this thing right it’s not going to work. If it doesn’t have this much power, it’s not going to work. So it’s all in these details that really make or break the mission. So it looks like just a capsule flying through space, but there’s a million things that have to happen for it to work successfully.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, the change and what you’re trying to do with it drives a lot of design decisions. I mean, that is the engineering process, is you give yourself a goal, and then all of a sudden you’re down this rabbit hole of “well, if I want that I’ll have to do this differently.”

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So the power system is a good example. If you want a long duration mission, you need arrays that don’t require consumables. Fuel cells require hydrogen to feed them, and so you can only do missions of however much hydrogen you have onboard for your fuel cell. If you have a RAIS, well, now I can do long missions. So that is a– that drives all your engineering and design decisions when you make those sort of objectives.

Host: Mm-hmm. So in the beginning when we talked about what is Orion, you kind of described the shape of it, what it looks like, and then you said, “there’s this barrel behind it,” you said, the service module. What role does that play in all of this?

Nujoud Merancy: So the service module is critical to Orion’s deep space activity. So if you think about the crew module, that’s got our computers, so that’s the heart of the vehicle. It’s the pressurized volume for the crew to stay in, and it’s also the piece with the heat shielding and the parachutes that land the crew safely. But on its own it can only stay alive for a few hours because it’s got the batteries, but that’s only a couple of hours’ worth of power in them. So with the service module you have the main propulsion system– that’s how you’re going to get home from the moon, and how you’re going to control your flight to get there– kind of important.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: It has all of the crew consumables– oxygen, nitrogen, and water tanks.

Host: Oh, okay.

Nujoud Merancy: So that’s feeding the crew module for the crew while you’re up there. It’s got the radiators. To the crew– the avionics computers generate a lot of heat, so we have to get rid of that because the crew needs a cabin that’s comfortable. You can’t have that 100 degrees. It would be horrible to work in, right? So we have to air condition the cabin, we have to get rid of all of that heat. So it runs through ammonia pipes on the radiators to get rid of it. And then you’ve got your power– you’ve got our big solar arrays out there. So those– all of sort of your main functions for your vehicle are built into the service module, and a lot of those come from the European Space Agency.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re partners with the Europeans. They’re building a huge part of Orion, and a very critical part, right? We can’t fly without the European space agency’s part of the service module.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. Because this is– I mean, is it fair to say it takes place– deep space exploration is a multinational, international objective, and we’re all kind of pooling our resources together to make it happen, in a way.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, I mean, I think we’ve had great partnerships.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: We’ve learned all the way from Apollo Soyuz, to the international space station, and now looking to the future– we all kind of have this model of trying to work together because this is very hard, it’s very expensive, and ultimately it benefits all of humanity.

Host: Yes.

Nujoud Merancy: So being in partnership in doing it is very much a key part of NASA’s plans.

Host: Yeah, because all these different things that we’re learning along the way to meet this goal were kind of invent– sort of, in a way, invented technologies, right? I know just James Webb invented a couple of technologies in order to make James Webb be James Webb, but you know, you have to come up with something and solve problems that you wouldn’t necessarily solve in other situations, but could be applied other places.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, I mean, and one of the key ones going forward is when you’re, say, going to mars, you want to close the life support system.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: You want to recycle all the water. And they’re already doing this on the space station, and so that’s a key technology that’s being developed for future missions and stuff.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So a closed loop life control, but now if you can preserve water, that could be a key technology on earth for a water starved region. So if you can improve on that technology, there’s the opportunity to improve things on earth because we’ve solved problems in space.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And engineers really need a challenge to figure out how to solve problems, and there’s a good one for people to work on.

Host: Now, going back to Apollo, I know for them, they brought all the water that they needed on their couple day mission to the moon and back. Is Orion going to have a recycling water process, or is it going to bring water?

Nujoud Merancy: So Orion is– we’re not closed loop. So we’re an open loop system, we’re bringing all the water you need for the 21 days. That includes hygiene, that includes drinking water, and rehydrating the food they’re eating.

Host: Okay, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So all of those things, we’re bringing the tanks full of water because we’re designed for that 21 days of crew support.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: When you’re looking at a long duration around the moon and a habitat you put at the moon for long duration, that habitat absolutely needs some closed loop life control.

Host: Absolutely, yes. So that’s where we’ll probably see the next generation of closed loop life support systems, is that. So– and it’s closed loop because water is a part of it, but then also I know environment control, right, like oxygen. That’s part of it, too, right?

Nujoud Merancy: Right, so oxygen, a lot of that– especially like, say, if you’re trying to do EVAs, you want to save that air. You don’t want to dump it overboard when you’re doing EVAs. So there’s a lot of technologies that have been improved on the space station and continue to be improved in a lunar environment to continue enabling longer– even more and more ambitious space exploration in the future.

Host: Absolutely. So let’s kind of go back inside the Orion and see and kind of point out the different features, what’s cool, what’s upgraded, and what kind of technologies are being brought to the table. I know you said there’s a lot of space, but the computers are smaller, right? So what kind of computers do you have on Orion?

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re using Honeywell computers, and I actually think they’re the same types used on Boeing 787 aircraft.

Host: Oh, cool.

Nujoud Merancy: So these are avionics, high technology avionics.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: Or state of the art, and we’re running– there’s four computers, and they actually all run in parallel because if one fails, you don’t want the spacecraft to go, “i don’t know what to do!” So all four of them run in parallel, and we do that for a lot of reasons. Number one, time critical things. If one goes down, you have three others already working, and they’re checking each other to make sure if one has an interrupt and produces bad data you don’t use it.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So all of them are running in parallel on the same data and checking each other to make sure it’s all right.

Host: Cool.

Nujoud Merancy: And then there’s other things. There’s lots of radiation in space.

Host: Oh, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: Computers and avionics don’t like radiation. You can– they get hardened to protect them, but you can get single event upsets, which basically changes a bit from a 0 to a 1. Well, you change a bit from a 0 to a 1 and you get a completely different answer in the algorithm.

Host: Oh, no!

Nujoud Merancy: So we put four on there to protect for the likelihood of two even getting interrupts mid-air. Because you can get one with an interrupt, and then very shortly after, have another one. So we’ve done four because we’ve done the risk calculations and we think with four we’ve brought down that risk as much as you can do without– you know, you can put 100 computers on there, but it’s still technically possible to have them all go down at once.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: You can never completely get rid of the risk.

Host: Do you have some sort of radiation protection technology kind of built into Orion?

Nujoud Merancy: So the avionics are called rad-hard– radiation-hardened– to protect them.

Host: Cool.

Nujoud Merancy: But the important part is the crew.

Host: Obviously, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So most of the time they’re getting background radiation. And when you’re outside the magnetosphere of the earth, they’re getting much higher doses of radiation.

Host: Okay.

Nujoud Merancy: So a few weeks in space at the moon is equivalent to six months on the ISS. So you see a lot of big radiation differences because you have to actually transit the Van Allen radiation belt just to get to the moon.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: But then you have– your big worries are solar flares from the sun, which send a huge amount of radiation over a short period of time. So if that happens, they actually have shelter procedures in place where they’ll empty out the locker inside Orion, the crew will get down in those lockers and put as much stuff around them as you can– so all of their clothes, their bags of water or whatever will get packed around them so that you basically create a little habitat, a little shelter in the middle of Orion, because the more stuff, the more structure you can put between you and the outside, the less radiation will get through in those events.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So we actually have procedures. They have to demonstrate that it works. They just recently did that testing, actually, in building 9.

Host: Oh, cool.

Nujoud Merancy: In our mockup, so that’s one example of how the testing happens. So they can actually shove the crew– they had to make sure you could fit the crew and they can be semi comfortable for whatever length of time is required, and have their computer to keep working, and stuff like that, and command the vehicle in there, and stuff like that. So we have to protect the crew, so that’s another thing we can do, is literally just put them in a little pocket, they build a little fort and hang out while the solar particle event is going on.

Host: Yeah, so how– about those events, obviously you’re planning for it. It’s part of your mission, you just did a test for it. What is the procedure for– how long do you have from when you detect it to when you communicate it the crew and they have to get into this mode? And then, how long do the events last and they have to stay there?

Nujoud Merancy: So, I mean, the good or the bad thing, right. So when the sun has a solar particle event, you see the solar flare, the light, so that travels at light speed. So it’s seconds or minutes from the time the event happens on the sun until we see it on earth.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: But the actual particles travel much slower, so you have a day or two before the particles get to the earth-moon system.

Host: Oh, that’s a decent amount of time.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah. So you can see this happen, and we have satellites that are detecting that. Same thing they use for the space station to detect when some of these things are happening.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So you see the event happening and you have a day or two to prepare the crew or get in their habitat and stuff, and I think it’s about a day long where these particles can be passing through.

Host: Wow!

Nujoud Merancy: So that’s the type of– you get an advance warning.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And then you have about a day they’re going to be hanging out in their little shelter until the levels have decreased enough to get back out again.

Host: Right. I wouldn’t have thought of that. Just if you can detect it in a few minutes, then I would think, “oh, man, they have no time to prepare for this.” But I feel like that’s a way better situation, and especially you have the procedures to kind of go through that, too.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, luckily we’re far enough from the sun that we have that sort of advance warning time.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And it’s not as hot.

Host: Definitely. So when I imagine the future of space technology, I’m imagining, like, a futuristic, like, “interstellar,” or something kind of movie with all kinds of fancy technologies. I know talking with some folks, touchscreens were considered, I guess, but there’s some challenges with touchscreens. Is Orion using something like that? Or is the challenges too much and they’re using something else?

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re not using touchscreens.

Host: Okay.

Nujoud Merancy: That was, I think, a trade early on in the design. The time crew had a lot of input in it, but I think one of the reasons not to do it is because especially when there’s a lot of dynamic motion going on, you’re trying to in a– you’re suited, you’ve got a glove on, you’re trying to push a button on a screen but your hand’s shaking because there’s a lot of vibration. So I think that is– that was one of the leading factors to decide not to.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re using computer screens and they’ve got edge switches, so there’s actually physical buttons around the outside of the screens.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: Similar to what you can find in airplane cockpits.

Host: Okay.

Nujoud Merancy: So we can change the software, so it’ll put data beside it and you can say so for one screen the button might do this, so they have commands they can input with those buttons. But it’s actually a physical button they push.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So that way you know you’re getting the right input.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: Versus a shaky hand trying to hit a touchscreen button.

Host: Yeah, that’s an issue.

Nujoud Merancy: So that was one of the big challenges that was decided early. So we have edge switches and little swizzles, so little toggles, so they can move the cursor around on the screen.

Host: Oh, wow.

Nujoud Merancy: So it’s a little bit more tactical feedback, so especially in a vibrating environment they can control the computer a little bit more precisely.

Host: Have you tested, like, something like that where you put them in an environment where they’re vibrating as if they were in a launch or some other kind of event during the mission and you need to be pressing buttons and certain cues?

Nujoud Merancy: I think that’s actually been done already.

Host: Oh, okay.

Nujoud Merancy: So our mockup in building 9, the screens work.

Host: Oh, cool.

Nujoud Merancy: So those are already working, they can test out. They have a whole team doing the displays for the crew, so it’s very important to make sure they have the right information on the screen.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: All the information they need to make decisions and then have all the commands in a procedure format so they can very–

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: Without having to think about it, follow what needs to be done. Because in an emergency you don’t have time to flip through a bunch of screens to find the button and commands you want.

Host: Got to be fast, right?

Nujoud Merancy: So they’ve got it all. They’ve got a whole team building that displays. I think they’ve actually put the crew on a shaker table.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And made them do this, but if they haven’t they will be.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: But yeah, but making sure that the crew can execute the procedures and have the right displays in front of them to know what to do is a very important part of the vehicle design.

Host: Right. Yeah, you wouldn’t be thinking about that if you weren’t, like, if you were just like, “oh, let’s put touchscreens on Orion.” And it’s just like, “no, there’s a lot of challenges. There’s going to be vibrating, they have to make sure the buttons work.” Yeah, there’s–

Nujoud Merancy: So, I mean, that’s what the engineers do is have to think through all of the problems, and get the input of the crew, and make sure we’re putting through the– not the best solutions ever, but an acceptable solution that meets all of the computing needs, right?

Host: Right. Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: Touchscreens maybe nice in some situations, but in others not so much. So what’s the acceptable solution that balances all of those factors?

Host: Right. So I know when it comes to Orion, I mean, one of the big challenges just of the mission itself is that it’s a fairly large spacecraft, right? It’s bigger than Apollo and it’s going to go so far out that when it comes back to earth it’s going to be coming in pretty hot, right? It’s going to be coming fast. So one of the big technologies for this whole thing is a heat shield, right?

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so we’re coming in– when you return from the earth-moon system– it’s not just Orion, it’s any spacecraft you send out to the moon.

Host: Okay.

Nujoud Merancy: It will come back and you’ll re-enter, you’ll hit entry interface when you actually hit the atmosphere of the earth. Or, not hit, but gently enter the atmosphere of the earth.

Host: Yes.

Nujoud Merancy: You’re going around 25,000 miles per hour, which is 11 kilometers per second.

Host: All right, pretty fast.

Nujoud Merancy: So you’re really cruising.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And so, when you do that, it’s actually the atmosphere’s helping you, because we’re using the atmosphere to slow down.

Host: Okay.

Nujoud Merancy: So we used that blunt capsule shape are aerobraking. So we’re letting the air slow us down, but in doing that it’s creating heat.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So all of that friction, basically, and the shockwave of that, you’re turning the air into plasma.

Host: Oh.

Nujoud Merancy: And so, the plasma you’re creating is incredibly hot.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So our heat shield can get up to around 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Host: Oh, man.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re talking a lot of heat. So on Orion, we’re using Avcoat, which is the same the material Apollo used. So again, there’s another similarity.

Host: Cool.

Nujoud Merancy: But that’s like really the only use for Avcoat. So after Apollo, they didn’t manufacture it and a company called Textron makes it.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So they had to go figure out how to make it again for Orion. So we’re using an Avcoat heat shield like Apollo. One of the mods– or modifications we’ve done for exploration mission 1 is we’re actually using a block application system. So it’s like big bricks of a heat shield that have been patched together versus what’s called a monolith where you make it all out of one piece.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And we had reasons for doing that, thermal stresses and stuff like that. But that’s one of the big things we’re testing out on exploration mission 1 is the new design the heat shield, which is a block system. So if you look at it it looks like a bunch of bricks that have been put together on our heat shield.

Host: Yeah, instead of one solid piece.

Nujoud Merancy: Right.

Host: Is it kind of the same logic as the shuttle? Because shuttle also had the little– is it tiles or blocks?

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah.

Host: The whole concept was if one of them’s not good you just take it off and pop in another one. Is that right?

Nujoud Merancy: So we don’t reuse ours.

Host: Oh, okay.

Nujoud Merancy: The concept of the blocks is because when it gets cold in space it actually creates a stress and could crack it.

Host: Oh.

Nujoud Merancy: So one of the reasons is actually going to the block is so that we are more safe after it’s been exposed in space, that we don’t develop cracks that weren’t there before we launched.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So that’s one of the reasons we went to the block. You mentioned the shuttle tile– so we actually used the same thing as the shuttle.

Host: Oh, cool.

Nujoud Merancy: So the shuttle had tiles on its belly.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: But those can only get up to around 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Host: Oh, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re using those on the back shell, so the conic part of the vehicle is covered in the same tiles like the space shuttle were.

Host: Oh, wow.

Nujoud Merancy: And then we’ve got a tape over them so you won’t really see them.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: But yeah, so we’re using the same tile material, ceramic tiles that the shuttle had on the back shell, but it’s not– they’re not enough heat rejection or heat protection to use on the heat shield, so we have to use the Avcoat on the heat shield like Apollo did.

Host: Yeah, because there’s that much of a temperature difference, right? Like, that’s going to– you’re– like, you said, the brunt force, so that’s like– that’s your 5,000 degrees. But on the other side you don’t have to worry about that.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so they’re basically like– the back shell is in the leeward side.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So it’s protected. The heat’s sort of going around it, so it doesn’t see– get nearly as hot as the heat shield does.

Host: Wow.

Nujoud Merancy: But they are a lot lighter. So once again, the reason you use the two different things is because we’re trying to save mass.

Host: Yes.

Nujoud Merancy: So on the back shell we can use the tiles. The ceramic tiles are super light. It’s kind of amazing how light those things are.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So we cover the back shell in those, but we have– Avcoat’s a lot heavier so we use that on the heat shield.

Host: Oh, okay.

Nujoud Merancy: But the heat shield itself is only about two inches thick. So we’re doing a lot in two inches on that Avcoat.

Host: Yeah, that is some strong stuff for two inches.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah.

Host: Yeah, you’re not– no layer’s peeling away there, right, because–

Nujoud Merancy: Actually, it does.

Host: Really?

Nujoud Merancy: Avcoat is ablative, so the way you reject the heat is it burns away as you’re re-entering.

Host: Whoa!

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re going to lose about half an inch worth of Avcoat. As you re-renter, you have to have enough there that we’ve protected for how much could burn away and still have protection and things like that.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: But the Avcoat does get thinner as you’re coming in through entry.

Host: Yeah. Is it sort of a one and done kind of technology then? It is like you use the heat shield and then, “okay, that’s good for that mission. Take it off and put on a new heat shield.”

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, the heat shield absolutely is not reusable.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So we’re not going to try to reuse that, especially now you’ve dunked it in the ocean.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So a lot of things don’t like salt water.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So you won’t want to reuse the heat shield.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: It had its day, and you build a new one.

Host: Right, and it’s been through some stuff so let it– just let it go. Put on a new one and we’ll deal with it later. There’s a lot of other good technologies on there, too. I mean, is there anything– like, even the seats that you’re revisiting, or are you doing something different there?

Nujoud Merancy: So the seats are a new design.

Host: Oh.

Nujoud Merancy: Apollo used actually these sort of canvas beds to save mass. We’re using aluminum structure.

Host: Oh, okay.

Nujoud Merancy: Thinned out and stuff, but they’re adjustable for different size people.

Host: Cool.

Nujoud Merancy: Right. So you can fit all the way from like a 5th percentile woman to a 95th percentile male.

Host: All right.

Nujoud Merancy: So you can fit quite the range of people inside the vehicle.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And so, but the seats are aluminum for launch. They’ve got leg rests and stuff. The crew– like, everything you launch on your back so you’re taking the g-forces in the chest on ascent. But then, you can move the leg panels and stuff like that after you get on orbit to give yourself more room so you don’t have these foot panels sticking up in space. So yeah, so the seats are a new design.

Host: Cool.

Nujoud Merancy: There’s nothing revolutionary about them.

Host: They’re just– I mean, it just sounds like it’s built to be flexible for different sizes and to be as comfortable as possible.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah.

Host: So when you’re launching and you’re having a lot of g-forces on your chest at least you’re going to be in good shape pretty much.

Nujoud Merancy: Right.

Host: You’re not going to be tossing and turning all over the place. So they’re going to be– are they going to be wearing the– what’s the suit they’re going to be wearing? Is it kind of like an orange pumpkin suit that they used to have on shuttle?

Nujoud Merancy: It is kind of like the orange pumpkin suit.

Host: All right, cool.

Nujoud Merancy: I mean, I think the acronym is maces.

Host: Maces.

Nujoud Merancy: Don’t ask me what they stand for. It’s an upgrade from what they had on shuttle.

Host: Cool.

Nujoud Merancy: But it is very similar, so they’ll be in the orange little pumpkin suits for ascent and entry.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: With gloves and helmets, so if something happens– because we can abort at any time during ascent and you land in the ocean. So on ascent, you land in the Atlantic Ocean. And when we re-enter we land in the Pacific Ocean. So the suits are there for their protection.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: Especially after they land. So if they had, say something happened and they had to get out of the cabin, you’ve got that full survival suit thing.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: With the built-in– I think it’s got the inflatable rafts, like a life vest in it, stuff like that.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So yeah, so the suits are for their protection in case anything goes wrong.

Host: They have a bunch of supplies just to keep kind of survive for a little bit just in case something happens, I know, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, the like signal flashing lights for rescue crews to seen them.

Host: Right. Yeah, a lot of it’s like emergency stuff. Cool, yeah, upgraded pumpkin suits. And they– it’s a long mission, right? You’re talking about 20-something days, so they get to take it off after launch and I guess before re-entry they don’t have it on, right? They take–

Nujoud Merancy: They put it back on for re-entry.

Host: Right, they put it back on, but they– I mean, during that whole time they don’t have it on.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so they’ll put the suits on for ascent, and then after we’ve done TLI, the trans-lunar injection burn, they’ll be able to take them off.

Host: Oh.

Nujoud Merancy: And once they get to orbit they can take the helmet and gloves off, because once you’ve shown that the cabin isn’t leaking air they can make themselves a little bit more comfortable.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: But there’s not a whole lot of time until the TLI burn, so they’ll probably still be in their suits while we actually do the burn.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And then once we’ve done that they’ll have time to actually get out of the suit, which takes a little bit of time to wrestle your way out of.

Host: Of course. Yeah, and–

Nujoud Merancy: But then for the most part, they’ll just stow them and they won’t get them back out unless there’s a leak or we’re back to re-entry and they’ll put them on for re-entry.

Host: How about that. That’s all you really need it for, right? Launch and entry, so– yeah, launch and reentry, I guess. So yeah, you’re good.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so we have a shirt sleeve environment in the cabin, so they’ll get to wear your NASA polo shirt and pants, just like every other crew.

Host: Very cool. Yeah. I know– I think it’s the international space station is at 72 degrees I think is what they try to keep it at? I’m guessing will Orion kind of be the same?

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, we’ll be about the same.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And then, we have fans and stuff to keep them cool. When they’re doing exercises we’ll flip on an extra fan to make sure we’re circulating that air better.

Host: Cool, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And stuff like that.

Host: Maybe some air fresheners, too?

Nujoud Merancy: Don’t have any air fresheners so that’s going to be– you get used to your own smell though, right?

Host: Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Okay, so that’s pretty good overview of the inside of Orion. And when we first started, we were talking about a lot of the tests that they were going on and we have different articles for all of these different test. Just one of the big ones that I think we should talk about is one that we’ve already done and that’s eft-1, right? So what was the mission all about?

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah, so eft-1, which I got to be a part of and it was awesome.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So technically, we mentioned exploration mission 1 earlier and talked about that being our first big in space test, but it’s actually our second. So exploration flight test 1 was the first test we did in December of 2014, and that one was a test for the crew module and re-entry and the parachute systems. So we actually launched the crew module, which was mostly complete and just a structural service module, and it launched on a delta iv heavy. So it’s a commercial rocket. We can just put it on there to test it out. And it flew up– we did one orbit in low earth orbit, and then we used the delta iv heavy up first stage to take us as high as it possibly could. We used the performance that rocket had. So we actually only got up to 3,600 miles in altitude. But what that did is we were able to come back down at 20,000 miles per hour, so we got as fast an entry as we could and that was to test the heat shield.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: Because we’ve done a lot of analysis and things like that but until you can actually test and validate that your models were right you’re guessing.

Host: Yes.

Nujoud Merancy: To some extent.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: And then we did a full parachute test on that, too. So basically we were able to test the ascent features.

Host: Mm-hmm.

Nujoud Merancy: We built the crew module for the first time, and you learn a lot just by doing it.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So building that the first time was a lot of lessons learned on how to make it actually better. And then, we tested the full entry sequence, so that means the forward bay cover. We have 11 parachutes, so the forward bay cover came off. We had drogues. We had the main parachutes in touch down in the recovery team. So eft-1 was our first in space flight test of the crew module and it was pretty awesome.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: It worked like almost completely according to plan. There was only like one even minor anomaly.

Host: Huh.

Nujoud Merancy: So we were really happy with the data we got back on that and we were able to make a lot of improvements in design as a result.

Host: Wow. All right, so what are some of the lessons that you learned? I mean, you talk about the heat shield, and parachutes, and you said launching and that whole sequence, too. So what are some of the things you learned?

Nujoud Merancy: So one of the really cool ones was– so in building it we originally had like 35 metal parts that made up the pressure vessel, or 35 welds and a whole bunch of pieces that had to all go together. And between the eft-1 and the em-1 crew module we have only 7 welds that’s done.

Host: Whoa.

Nujoud Merancy: So decreasing the number of welds saves a lot of mass. So it was like a couple hundred pounds of mass saved because you’re doing fewer welds and making bigger parts with fewer seams.

Host: Nujoud Merancy: Oh.

Nujoud Merancy: So those kinds of production things help teach you a lot.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And then, we were able to learn a lot, like the way some of the systems worked, like the crew module cooling system. We saw some really interesting data and so they were able to update their models with that. The parachutes, learned a lot.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: Because that was the first end to end flight test. They do a lot of drop tests, but you can only get certain conditions on those flights and stuff.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: This was the first time it was end to end. So the models could all be updated and we know more. So a lot of times when we’re doing these tests is you’re validating the models, and then you can reduce the uncertainties that you had to apply.

Host: Mm-hmm.

Nujoud Merancy: So things like the heat shield can maybe get thinner because– and we could save some mass, because now we know more about the environment so you can shave off some of the uncertainties and we can save a little bit of mass. So there’s– those kind of improvements are what we learned out of the flight test.

Host: Wow. Is that where you said it was the heat shield is now two inches. Was it two inches on that flight? Or did you learn that you can shave it off and now it’s two inches?

Nujoud Merancy: So now it’s two inches. I think it was about the same on that flight because we weren’t coming in quite as fast.

Host: Okay. Right, right.

Nujoud Merancy: But that’s where we could update the models and reduce some of the uncertainties in what we’re doing.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So it helps you in future designs.

Host: Right, and you save a lot of mass that way.

Nujoud Merancy: Yes.

Host: That’s pretty awesome. I can’t believe there’s 11 parachutes, and they come out in– it’s not like you’re falling through the atmosphere and then– boom! Eleven–

Nujoud Merancy: It’s not just like the “up” balloon house where they all come out at once. No.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: Uh-uh, no. It’s a big sequence. So for the first–

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: The first three parachutes are very small, and they’re what actually pull the forward bay cover off.

Host: Hmm.

Nujoud Merancy: So when we launch, you’ve got a big composite forward bay cover that’s protecting all those parachutes from space, because you have to make sure they don’t get too hot or too cold and they’re still there when you come home again.

Host: Very important.

Nujoud Merancy: So the first three really pull that forward bay cover away.

Host: Okay.

Nujoud Merancy: And then, you put out two drogues and the drogues are used when we are still going really fast. We come out at 24,000 feet of altitude over the ocean so we wait until we’re down. We slowed down as much as we can in the atmosphere and you actually start this sequence at 24,000 feet. So the forward bay cover comes off.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: The two drogues come out which are smaller and you’re using them to sort of stabilize and slow down a little bit more.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: And those are fired with mortars, so it’s basically like a cannon.

Host: Cool.

Nujoud Merancy: That blows out, goes boom, and there they go. And then when you’ve slowed down enough from those, we actually cut them loose, and you throw out three pilots. So the pilots are actually really small parachutes, but they’re pulling out these huge main parachutes. The big orange and white parachutes you’re used to seeing are actually pulled out by three small parachutes themselves, and then the bags come off and the big parachutes come out, and you have your three main parachutes, the orange and white ones we land on safely.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And those even have stages, because if you open them up all at once, the forces would tear the parachute apart.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: So they’ve actually got Kevlar rings in them, and so they open up only so much, and then when you’ve got enough force, pyro pops those rings and it gets one stage bigger. And then another one, and then they get fully open. So you’re still going fast enough that you’ve got to stage that parachute so that you don’t tear it apart while you’re landing. So when you finally get them out, they can actually cover a football field, the three big parachutes that you’ve got.

Host: Wow. But you’re right– I mean, you’re going so fast that you don’t want to deploy those first thing because you’re right, they’ll just tear apart.

Nujoud Merancy: Right.

Host: So you’ve got the atmosphere. That’s your first sort of quote unquote “parachute” because it slows you down. And then the next parachutes bring out– just open it up so that more parachutes can come out. I just love how there’s parachutes to bring out parachutes.

Nujoud Merancy: I know, that’s the best part.

Host: That was my favorite.

Nujoud Merancy: So yeah, the drogues are small enough that they can be fired with the pyro tar, the mortar, but the big parachutes, they actually use an autoclave to actually compress them down, and but then they’re still these huge bricks, basically, of parachute material. And I mean, this is nylon, so it’s really lightweight, but when you’ve got so much of it, they end up with this heavy mass. And you can’t– there’s no amount of– I mean, we don’t have a giant cannon. So those have their own parachute just to pull out the main parachutes.

Host: That probably– I mean, just the parachute system in general, that’s got to be a decent amount of weight for coming up and going down, too. So that takes out a big chunk of what you can use, right?

Nujoud Merancy: Right, so all these systems– and those we have to take to the moon and back. So every time you take it someplace new, that’s mass you have to push around space.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And that takes more prop and more weight. So the amount– I mean, our most critical mass item is the crew module because that’s all the mass we have to land under those parachutes. So if the crew module got super heavy, then you’d need even bigger parachutes. So we have to control very tightly how much mass we put on everywhere.

Host: Yeah, wow. Okay. [ laughter ] that’s just– I mean, it’s extremely important, right? I mean, what’s the benefit of using parachutes versus just like what you see in the movies– like just a propulsion system that fires jets and lets you land on the ground, or something like that?

Nujoud Merancy: That would be awesome, but we don’t have– you’d need a huge rocket, right? You needed a huge rocket to get off the ground, and you’d then need a huge rocket to slow down and do some sort of propulsive reentry. The shuttle did it with– they did aerodynamic reentry where the atmosphere slowed you down, and then they had the lifting body so they could actually control their flight and land on a runway.

Host: I like how you say lifting body and not wings. [ laughter ]

Nujoud Merancy: Those are stubby wings. They don’t quite work super well, right?

Host: Yeah, just from talking to astronaut pilots that actually flew the shuttle, they said it was like flying a brick. You really didn’t fly– it was like barely a glide.

Nujoud Merancy: It’s like a graceful crash.

Host: A graceful crash! But it lands on a huge runway and stuff like that, too. So yeah. What– oh, go ahead.

Nujoud Merancy: And the reason we don’t put wings on Orion is that’s so much mass we’d have to then take to the moon. So the wings, the lifting body, to try and send that to the moon is heavier than the parachutes we’re using to land with.

Host: Ah.

Nujoud Merancy: So that’s another trade you have to make. If you want to send a lifting body, well, now I need an even bigger rocket just to get it there. So you keep trimming things off, and parachutes weigh less than wings.

Host: Huh, there you go, okay. So obviously there is a logic to it, it’s just– as cool as it would be to just land like a “Star Wars” ship or something, there’s– we’re not there yet.

Nujoud Merancy: Yeah. Well, and the Soyuz does use a retro rocket. It’s just because they land on land, and they have a rocket strapped to the bottom of their heat shield. And at the last minute, it takes off that last bit of speed so you can land on the earth without hurting the crew.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: Since we’re landing in the ocean– it’s a design choice that’s been made, right– we don’t need the retro rocket. So we can land a little bit faster– we’re still only going 20 miles an hour. So we went from 25,000 miles an hour to 20 miles per hour in 20 minutes. And so then we splashdown in the ocean, so we don’t need the retro rocket like the Soyuz has.

Host: Okay, so the design choice of the ocean is you can land faster, and you don’t need the retro rockets.

Nujoud Merancy: Right.

Host: Yeah, so.

Nujoud Merancy: And then the other part is– well, I mean, we don’t necessarily in the U.S. Have a good land landing site where you wouldn’t be overflying cities, something like that.

Host: Right. But you don’t want to land in Death Valley or anything like that.

Nujoud Merancy: Right, and one of the problems– and I say if you tried to land in the desert, one of our issues is that if there’s a rock and you land on top of a rock, you could actually injure the crew because it doesn’t land the same way if you came down on top of a big rock as it did if you came down on a nice grassy plane.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So those are a lot of the reasons that we went back to landing in water like Apollo did.

Host: Oh, okay. Well, it makes sense. So just kind of thinking about the mission of Orion– and I know there’s like a lot of different tests that we can go over, but we’ll have to do another episode for em-1 and like all that kind of stuff, because that– we can really do just a whole other episode just on–

Nujoud Merancy: Oh, we can talk about how em-1 goes together for a long time.

Host: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, kind of just ending on the idea of the mission, like what is the end goal? Obviously we have 21 day missions, but you hinted at a gateway, a deep space gateway. So how does that fit into the Orion picture?

Nujoud Merancy: Right, so the big purpose of Orion is to be the architecture piece to actually begin a permanent exploration of space. So Apollo was awesome.

Host: Yeah!

Nujoud Merancy: No one’s going to deny that. We’ve landed people on the moon.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: But that was all it was designed to do, and it didn’t really set us up for long term exploration. We didn’t have an outpost. We didn’t have plans for what to do next.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: But Orion was really– and the space launch system– you could then launch big pieces where we can start to build an outpost. So we can build a small little mini, mini, mini space station around the moon where we can start doing much more difficult exercises, where the crew is out there for months at the moon, where you can’t come home within hours from the space station.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: So it’s more of an engineering challenge on your design.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And so we can start testing out some of those deep space exploration things, and then longer term, you’ll be able to start assembling a mars vehicle out there. So we can start flying the pieces up, because to go to mars, that’s a two-year mission. So we need a big habitat. You’d need a lot of food and a lot of water, and big solar arrays. So in order to start testing some of those technologies you need for a mars vehicle, Orion can help be a part of that lunar phase of now doing that testing and the vehicle designs we’re going to need for the future. So it’s really setting the stage for a long-term exploration. The first, you know, we have the space station, which can test a lot of things for the crew. They’re testing closed loop designs, and we do a lot of stuff like that. If we start building things out around the moon, we’re now challenging ourselves for reliability and vehicle design. And not being able to come home quickly changes your perception a lot on how you design your vehicles.

Host: Oh, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And then eventually, using that as a staging ground for going to mars and beyond. So that’s really the vision of– first you build a big rocket and Orion, and then we can keep building the other pieces to keep going. So Apollo was a focused– land on the moon and that was it. Now we’re trying to set the stage for a long term exploration project.

Host: And it seems like– I mean, honestly, just from talking with a bunch of different guests on this show, international space station plays a huge role in that as well. Like what we’re doing and learning there can be applied to, like you said, this outpost that’s going to be around the moon. And then what we do and learn on Orion is going to learn for missions beyond, because now you’re talking about the space camper going around the moon and having to be able to withstand having a crew there for– you said up to three weeks.

Nujoud Merancy: Three weeks on Orion. Once you built a little outpost, you can stay for months at a time around the moon.

Host: That’s what I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And so we’ve got to be able to build these pieces one at a time, right? We don’t have an endless budget. We can’t do everything at once, which would be awesome if we could, but realistically we need to make incremental steps.

Host: Absolutely.

Nujoud Merancy: And as long as we’re progressing, we’re doing something.

Host: Yeah. So I mean, do you think Orion will play a role– I mean, it sounds like Orion’s going to play a pretty decent role in this outpost around the moon. Do you think it’ll play a role in a mars mission?

Nujoud Merancy: Absolutely. So once you want to go to mars, you’re still going to use Orion to get to your mars vehicle, right?

Host: Oh, there you go.

Nujoud Merancy: And you’ll use Orion to get home from the mars vehicle. You don’t want to have to rebuild these things over and over. So really, by building Orion, you’re going to keep building carbon copies in the future. And we’ve got some upgrades planned, so it’s not going to be all a perfect carbon copy. But for the most part, you’ve got your vehicle that safely gets the crew off the earth and home again. And then that’ll be used for those mars missions to get the crew to the mars vehicle, and then you’ll go do your mars mission, and then you come home again in Orion. So this isn’t– it doesn’t end.

Host: Right.

Nujoud Merancy: Orion, like shuttle, should be a multi-decadal program when it’s all said and done, and you’ll just keep using it.

Host: Wow, okay. I mean, it’s just so cool to think that this is our plan. And it sounds like– you were talking about at the end there– we already have upgrades planned. This is not the end all, be all. We have to keep improving. This is how we do it, right?

Nujoud Merancy: Right. So I mean, the hardest part is getting it to fly the first time.

Host: Yeah.

Nujoud Merancy: And so right– like I said, we didn’t put life support systems on for em-1, because there’s no crew. So the first obvious upgrade for em-2 is to put the life support system on. And so there’s some things like that. You don’t want to keep having to upgrade Orion, but there’s a few things you could do to make it better if you change the mission design. Say you wanted to go to a low lunar orbit in the future. We’d need to add a sublimator to reject some of the heat, because it’s actually kind of hot around the moon.

Host: Oh!

Nujoud Merancy: So there’s things we can do, and we’re sort of protecting for those things so that if the changes happen– we don’t really know exactly how those future vehicles are going to shape up– you could tweak Orion. And I wouldn’t really so much call it change Orion as tweaking it to make sure it’s supporting the missions that you need. So I mean, we’re protecting for a few things, and we’ve got some space left so that if we need to add something, there’s room to put a few more things on. And so it’s just sort of undefined spaces, but that gives you opportunities to do those tweaks that you need. You’re not going to fundamentally change the shape, or the parachutes, or the reentry systems, but we have extensible capabilities that you could add on later.

Host: Wow, all right. So I mean, i’ve asked a couple guests before this, and I love asking this question. I think it’s a good question to kind of end on, is– we’re designing Orion to be a human space exploration vehicle, to take humans further out. And we have rovers that are already on mars, orbiting around mars, going to different planets. And yeah, that’s cool, and there’s a lot of robotic missions, but why humans? Why do we send humans out to explore the solar system?

Nujoud Merancy: So I mean, there’s the science answer, right: humans– robots are awesome, but humans can do what robots are doing within a matter of hours, right? You know, a six-month rover on mars can be done in hours to days with humans because they can travel faster, they can see things, they can process things real time.

Host: All right.

Nujoud Merancy: But then there’s the humanity answer, right?

Host: Yeah!

Nujoud Merancy: You know, all these things we’re doing is to improve technology and bring humanity together. So sending people, having that challenge is a uniting force.

Host: Yes.

Nujoud Merancy: So space exploration is still one of the only peaceful activities humans do. So I’d like to keep it that way.

Host: Absolutely. We have an international space station already, and even Orion is an international effort, right? You already said we’re working with the European space agency, and they have a critical component to make Orion possible, and can’t do it without them. We need all hands on deck, and you’re right– it’s for a peaceful mission, so absolutely love that. Well, Nujoud, thanks so much for coming on the show. And I mean, that’s a super high level overview, but that’s what more podcasts are for. More podcast episodes are for going into the details and stuff like that, but that is just– I thought that was a perfect explanation of what Orion is all about. So thank you so much for coming on the show. For those listening, if you want to stay tuned until after the music or credits here, we’ll tell you how to follow Orion’s mission and pay attention to the story on social networks and everything. So Nujoud, thank you so much for coming on.

Nujoud Merancy: You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.

Host: Absolutely.

[ music ]

[ indistinct radio chatter ]

>> Welcome to space.

[ music ]

Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. So today, we talked about the Orion spacecraft with Nujoud Merancy. And we really, honestly just skimmed the surface. I had a lot that I really wanted to talk about with Nujoud, but we sort of ran out of time. And there’s been– one of the main things I really wanted us to talk about with her today was just besides the whole Orion thing, I really wanted to go over some of the tests that they’ve been doing. We’ll probably follow up with an episode later about some of those tests, but if you want to go to NASA.gov/Orion and check those out now, there’s a lot of them. They had water drop tests, and egress tests, and parachute tests, launch abort– whatever you want. Actually, we do have a launch abort effort coming up here soon. But if you want to check it out, just go to NASA.gov/Orion. You can find it out now. On social media, they’re talking about all the updates and all the cool tests that are going on, too, on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. On Facebook it’s @NASAorion, Twitter @NASA_orion, and on Instagram it’s @exploreNASA. All of them are verified, so you can find them pretty easy. But if you want to, use the hashtag #askNASA on any one of those platforms, and just mention “Houston, we have a podcast.” We’ll get you some of those answers shortly. We have a lot of episodes coming up on all different topics, so we’ll just try to fit that into one of the episodes later. So this podcast was recorded on September 13, 2017. Thanks to Alex Perryman, john Stoll, and Rachel Kraft. And thanks again to Mrs. Nujoud Merancy for coming on the show. We’ll be back next week.