| Traverse to Station 4 | Geology Station 5 |
| Traverse to Station 4 | Geology Station 5 |
[The cuff checklist pages covering Station 4 are CDR/LMP-8 and CDR/LMP-9. They are planning to spend an hour at this station. As per CDR/LMP-9, while John aims the high-gain antenna and dusts the Rover, Charlie will take a series of 500-mm photos.]MP3 Audio Clip ( 0 min 59 sec )[Station 4 activities are detailed in Brian McInall's Station 4 planimetric map.]
144:09:46 Duke: (Scanning LMP-9) Okay, (I) got the (Rover) display. Okay, I'm around to get the 500 (from under the CDR seat). Tony, you just can't believe this! You just can't believe this view! You can see the lunar module (see AS16-112- 18272); you can see North Ray with boulders on the southwest side; and where Station 12 is, there's one huge boulder (House Rock) that's going to be just great.
[In AS16-112- 18272, House Rock is the very large boulder just above and to the right of the central fiducial. The boulder is about 9.5 kilometers from Station 4 and is about 12 meters tall. In the foreground, the LM is about 4.3 km from Station 4 and is 7 meters tall. As can be seen from a comparison of chapter D1 / figure 3 and chapter D4 / figure 23 from the USGS Apollo 16 Professional Paper, they are about 140 meters above the LM.]144:10:12 Duke: It looks like we can get up there (with the Rover), and there's a great ray pattern going up the side of Smoky Mountain from North Ray.[Figures 3 and 4 from chapter D4 from the USGS Apollo 16 Professional Paper show the location of the Station relative to local craters (fig. 3) and a planimetric map of the Station (fig. 4).]
[Brian McInall has revised and elaborated the planimetric map using LROC image M175179080LR and the Hasselblad images taken at Station 4 .]
144:10:24 England: Sounds fantastic. That 500 millimeter (lens) should do a job for us.
144:10:29 Duke: Oh, I hope so. I can see super into...
144:10:37 Young: Charlie, quit pushing this thing around. (Pause; Static)
MP3 Audio Clip ( 0 min 03 sec )
144:10:52 Young: Charlie, could you align the high gain? I can't reach it.
[Duke - "The problem was reaching the handle. You could be standing away and you could look into the scope. I mean, you didn't have to get right up next to it. (From) two or three feet away, you could look in...The problem is, John was having trouble reaching the handle from downslope. And I just looked in there and pointed it up."]MP3 Audio Clip ( 0 min 27 sec )
[In Houston, Flight Director Pete Frank has made a final decision that no attempt will be made to fix the Heat Flow cable that was accidentally broken during the ALSEP deployment.]144:10:56 Duke: Okay, John. I got this roll thing (meaning the pitch/roll meter) working again.
144:10:59 Young: You did, huh?
144:11:00 Duke: Yeah. Hold still, and let me - Okay, Tony. The roll...(I) hit the thing. The roll is 4 degrees left. That was a great estimate on John's part. And the pitch scale is falling off, but the needle is in the center.
MP3 Audio Clip ( 11 min 32 sec )
144:11:32 Young: I'd say it's about - from my gravity gradients and looking at the LCRU - I'd say it's about 3 degrees pitched down. (Revising his estimate) 4 degrees pitched down.
144:11:42 England: Okay, we copy that.
144:11:43 Duke: Oh, wait a minute. Do you want me to get the high gain.
144:11:46 Young: Yeah.
144:11:51 England: And while you're playing around the LRV there, how about the Volt/Amp (gauge) switched to Amp.
144:12:01 Duke: Okay, I did that. They're low.
144:12:04 England: Okay, fine.
144:12:12 Duke: Okay. We weren't pointed at it.
114:12:13 Young: Charlie. It's too hard to do this way. We have to use the (signal strength)...
144:12:19 Duke: We can go at it from right here, John. (Pause; Static clears)
144:12:37 Duke: Ah ha! There's that beauty.
144:12:39 England: Hey, we've got a picture!
[TV on.]144:12:40 Duke: Hey, Tony. That thing's a piece of cake for aligning it at (a Rover heading of) 270.
144:12:48 England: Okay, that's good news.
[The TV camera is pointing more or less over the right front fender. John is reading his checklist and Charlie is just off-camera to the left getting the 500-mm camera. Some inbound Rover tracks are visible. Fendell pans left.]Video Clip ( 3 min 27 sec 0.9 Mb RealVideo or 31 Mb MPEG )
144:12:56 Duke: Okay, starting with the 500. I'm going to Intermediate...I mean, (the) Min position on the cooling.
144:13:02 Young: (Reading CDR-9) Okay, and "dust".
[Charlie goes off-camera to the right to take his 500-mm shots. Evidently, John decides not to dust the Rover. Either that or he did the dusting while Charlie was aiming the high-gain.]144:13:06 Duke: Tony, you can see the rays of South Ray come out across the landscape, albedo-wise. And it's really predominant. They cross right across...Go right up Survey (Ridge), and it's definitely ray pattern that we were crossing (during the drive from the LM). Okay, (reading LMP-9) "500 of Stubby, 15 (pictures)" and...That's not worth 15 pictures, Tony.
[Charlie does not take pictures of Stubby to start but, rather, starts with some pictures of South Ray Crater. As can be seen in the Stubby pictures described below, there are few shadows and, hence, little visible detail in the crater.]144:13:39 England: (Passing on a request from the Backroom) And, John, before you start sampling...[Duke, from the 1972 Technical Debrief - "Stubby was a very old, subdued, tired-looking crater and it wasn't much but regolith. I got pictures of Stubby, but there was no lineation, no evidence of outcrop, no evidence of anything except old, tired-looking things."]
[Young, from the 1972 Technical Debrief - "I got the feeling from looking at Stubby that it was there (meaning it was formed) after Descartes was because of the way the slope was off the mountain around Stubby. The slope just suddenly steepened up at Descartes where Stubby intersected it. That could be erroneous, but that's the only reasonable conclusion that I could come to. The rim of Stubby bisected - or cut off - some of Stone Mountain."]
[One pre-mission hypothesis about Stone Mountain was that the mountain was a relatively recent volcanic construct. If, however, an old crater like Stubby cuts into the mountain, the mountain must be very old. The astronauts all received a great deal of training in the principle of "superposition" - what's on top of what - a key to determining the relative ages of geologic features.]
[John gets the gnomon from behind his seat and turns his back to us as he looks for an appropriate place to start sampling. We get a glimpse of the opening in the thermal layer that allows water vapor to escape the sublimator.]
[Jones - "The sublimator (opening) looks like it's covered. With gauze or something so you don't get a lot of dirt in there."]
[Duke - "That bottom one is a strap and you can see, right above that, there's a little line and that's just a light covering over it, I think. See that line?"]
[Jones - "Maybe three or four inches below the top of the PLSS and two inches or so above the strap."]
[There is another opening in the thermal cover on the front of the PLSS behind the astronaut's neck.]
144:13:42 Duke: Can't see much.
144:13:44 England: ...could you give us a general impression of the rock types?
144:13:49 Young: And, it looks to me like this rock pile that we're seeing in there is about the same type of rock. I...(Pause) As you can see, they're angular. Let me go over there and look at this big one.
[Fendell pans right as John walks away from the Rover.]144:14:10 Young: I think they're right friable. They have a very shocked appearance. There's a boulder we could turn over, Charlie.
144:14:20 Duke: That's what I was saying. That a big one. Right behind us.
144:14:24 Young: The trouble is, I don't want to push it into the Rover.
[Muehlberger, from a 1996 e-mail message - "You ask about the Backroom. I suspect my predecessor as P.I. for Apollo Field Geology, Gordon Swann, was the major hand in the design of the team that I inherited for Apollo 16-17. He was also involved in the early Apollo Missions besides being P.I. for Apollo 14-15. My team consisted of individuals who had done the same jobs on prior missions, so I had a well-trained team to start. What an asset!!!"]144:14:29 Duke: Okay, Tony. I'm taking some 500s of South Ray. I can see into the rim on the inner wall on the south side. And the characteristics of the thing: it's got black streaks and white streaks coming out of the wall right over the rim, which says to me, there's two types of rocks down there.["I sat at a table facing Jim Lovell - who was in charge of the Science Backroom - with Dale Jackson and Lee Silver - both brilliant geologists - on either side of me as my brain trust, who would offer advise as needed. Behind me was Bob Sutton, who was generating a card file concerning each sample collected (material he used later in his work to orient as many samples as possible into their original lunar positions). These cards were useful to me for quick review of what had been collected to that point - i.e. were there types of rocks that were being shorted in the sampling? Off to the left was George Ulrich at a big table covered with the map of the landing site. On it he kept track of the crew's position, list of tasks to be done at a given station, the times for when they arrived at the station and when they were supposed to leave for the next station. All of this info was transmitted to the main mission control and put up on the big screens at the front of mission control. Ours was the leftmost screen and thus was never seen on public TV."]
["When we wanted to send a message to the crew, we first had to convince Jim Lovell that it was important, then he would initial our note that was then placed under the TV that was over our map so that the CapCom could see it."]
["When Lovell called the Flight Director and he approved it, Flight then OK'd the CapCom to insert the message into the ongoing conversation whenever he felt that it wouldn't break a chain of thought. Off to my right in front of an overhead projector was Tim Hait who kept notes in chronological order that were projected onto the wall so that, if we got involved in something and lost track of what was happening, we could look at the wall and see the time the note was taken and what was the geological subject. There were also representatives of the lunar sample community behind who were people always pushing for their special requirements on sampling."]
["In another room we had a photogrammetry team who were involved with compiling Polaroid pictures from the lunar TV camera panoramas, annotating them for interesting rocks or geological features, placing these pans in front of me within minutes of when they had been taken, pointed out the features and we then tried to have the camera study these rocks when it wasn't deemed necessary to watch the crew."]
["We also had a team of court reporters who took the entire EVA transcripts, and furnished us with the printouts for use. They were available within days whereas the NASA transcript was months away."]
["In another room, we had a team of geologists whose only job was to watch the TV, listen to what was happening, phone us if they had any brilliant ideas that had escaped us, write up a summary of the EVA that was distributed throughout Mission Control before the crew had gone to sleep, and modify the pre-planned EVA coming up to fill in the sampling, photography, etc., that had been missed the first time. On Apollo 16, Dallas Peck - later to become Director, U.S. Geological Survey - and that team wrote a position paper on why EVA-3 could NOT be canceled and that the MAIN purpose of the landing was to get to North Ray crater because it gave us a deep hole into the Descartes that could not be gotten anywhere else in the landing site. The position paper was successful and we got a shortened but acceptable quick run traverse to North Ray."]
["So, that describes the main aspects of my team during the missions. A great bunch, all willing to work as long as needed to make sure that the job was done well. I can never thank them enough; after all, the boss gets the credit, but its the team that did the job."]
[Fendell finds Charlie, who is taking 500-mm photos.]
[Charlie's South Ray pan consists of AS16-112- 18243 to 18252 plus 18255 to 18259.]144:14:52 Young: That's right, Charlie. That's what it says. And that's why your dark streaks show up on your photographs. It's not that that thing wasn't throwing out blocks in every which direction. That dark streak right down through the middle of our photograph - that looks (to be) the darkest in the area - is probably dark material from South Ray. (Pause)[David Harland has assembled the central portion of the sequence.]
[Frames 18253 and 18254 show Baby Ray Crater.]
[Fendell has continued his clockwise pan and we have a good view of the bright-white South Ray ejecta blanket. The TV picture is not good enough, however, to show the dark streaks that John discusses in his next transmission.]
[John is probably referring to Figure 3.6.2-3 in the Lunar Surface Procedures volume. John's hypothesis is probably not correct. Analyses described in USGS Professional Paper 1048, "Geology of the Apollo 16 Area, Central Lunar Highlands" indicate that the bright rays are characterized by significantly higher concentrations of blocks (larger than about 2 cm) than the dark, inter-ray areas. In addition, there are indications that very little of the ray material is in the form of fine particles. Apparently, the dark, inter-ray areas are relatively devoid of South Ray ejecta.]144:15:20 Duke: Tony, Stubby is a very subdued, old crater. It's not worth 15 pictures really. It's not much to it.
144:15:35 England: Okay, copy that.
144:15:36 Duke: No outcrop at all. I see some secondaries in the inner flank.
144:15:43 Young: It doesn't look much different than the subdued craters that we've just come across.
[Charlie's pictures of Stubby Crater are AS16-112- 18260 to 18268.]144:15:49 Duke: I've just got to get a picture with the 500 of the old Orion sitting out there. Just spectacular. (Pause) Okay, I'm going to take a couple of North Ray, Tony. (Pause)[In the TV picture, Smoky Mountain and Ravine Crater ( 1222 ) come into view. Fendell stops his pan every once in a while so that, as Bill Muehlberger described above, Polaroid pictures can be taken for use by the geology team in the Backroom.]
[Charlie's pictures of the LM, North Ray Crater, Ravine Crater, and Smoky Mountain are AS16-112- 18269 to 18277. David Harland has assembled portions of these frames into a mini-pan.]144:16:05 Young: Most of these rocks have a whitish cast to them, Houston, but...(Pause)
144:16:13 Duke: Okay, Tony, I'm up to frame count 90 on magazine Lima.
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144:16:21 England: Okay. (Pause)
144:16:27 Duke: Wow! What a place! What a view, isn't it, John?
144:16:30 Young: It's absolutely unreal!
144:16:34 Duke: We've really come up here, Tony. It's just spectacular. Gosh, I have never seen...All I can say is "spectacular", and I know y'all are sick of that word, but my vocabulary is so limited.
144:16:50 England: We're darn near speechless down here...
[Fendell reaches the clockwise pan limit. Charlie has just put the 500-mm camera under the CDR seat. John is in the background, probably taking the "locator" photos for his first sample. He has already taken a cross-Sun stereopair, AS16-107- 17443 and 17444, stepping to his right between frames. He will collect the rock which is casting a shadow on the gray-scale gnomon leg.]144:16:51 Duke: (Reviewing LMP-9) Okay, we got the description...(Stops to listen) Can you guys see how really spectacular the view is?[Frame 17445 is John's down-Sun "before". Note the sizable pieces of rock that he ran over as he maneuvered into their parking spot. The Rover chassis clearance is about 14 inches.]
[Frame 17446 is John's "locator".]
144:16:59 England: We sure can.
144:17:02 Duke: Hey, yeah. Where's the big eye? (Turning to face the TV) There it comes.
144:17:05 England: We're looking at you.
[Charlie goes to the back of the Rover to get the rake. John is getting a sample bag off his camera.]144:17:08 Duke: Look upslope, Tony. Okay, look on upslope, and you see all this rock field that we're in here. (Pause) Okay. Anyway, I'll put the rake...The rake's coming next, John (as per CDR/LMP-9).
144:17:19 Young: Okay. I was just going to get this one sample.
144:17:21 Duke: Okay, go ahead. Then we need a pan. That's after penetrations; and then I've got to get the...Guess what's coming up? I can almost pick this thing (meaning the Rover) off the ground.
[The Rover moves as Charlie tries to free the rake. John bobs down onto his right knee to grab the sample. He doesn't quite make it. Fendell pans left.]144:17:35 Duke: That thing doesn't look like it's too stable.
144:17:37 Young: What's that?
144:17:38 Duke: This back wheel's off the ground! The Rover. The right rear wheel is off the ground. (See AS16-107- 17446.)
144:17:54 Duke: (Looking at the TV camera from almost directly up-Sun) I think we need to dust the TV lens. It's pretty dusty.
[In Houston, Ed Fendell agrees with Charlie's assessment.]144:17:56 England: Yeah, Charlie. If you get a chance, we would like it dusted.
144:17:58 Duke: I'll get the lens brush. (Answering Tony) Yeah, it looks really dusty, Tony. Just a minute.
[Charlie goes around the back of the Rover to get the lens brush, probably from under the CDR seat. Fendell stops his counter-clockwise pan and reverses direction.]144:18:08 England: Okay. These blocks we see lying around the surface, are most of them from South Ray?
144:18:16 Duke: (Garbled) (Pause) Boy, I'll tell you, Tony. I just came up about a 20-degree slope, and it is really loosely compacted here. Stand by. I'm going to swing the big eye around. I can't dust unless I do that.
[Charlie rotates the TV camera counter-clockwise and dusts the lens.]144:18:38 Young: Okay, Houston. I've got a hard rock. I think it's glass coated, but it's so dust covered I can't tell, and it's going in bag 394.
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144:18:50 England: Okay, 394.
[This is sample 64435, a 1.08 kg breccia.]144:18:58 Duke: The block population here...Okay, you're all dusted, Houston.
144:19:01 England: Thank you much, Charlie.
[Fendell pans counter-clockwise. As he goes by Ravine Crater, we can easily see the improved picture quality.]144:19:02 Duke: The block population here in this immediate area is 60 to 70 percent (surface coverage), with the biggest one being right in our little crater here - and that (rocks)'s a meter or so. They're all very angular; but the prime size...The majority of them are less than, oh, less than 30 centimeters or so. Though there's a good proportion of 50...[John's cross-Sun "after" of 64435 is AS16-107- 17447.]
144:19:35 Young: Let me put this in your bag, Charlie.
[Fendell pans past Baby Ray Crater and, on this pass, the dark streaks on the rim and on the ejecta blanket are visible.]144:19:37 Duke: Okay, coming around. Got to get the rake. (Pause) Most of them are dust covered, Tony. Well, not most of them; in fact, most of them are not dust covered. The one that I'm just kicking...The ones around I kicked up.
144:19:56 Young: Got the rake?
144:19:58 Duke: Yeah, I got it.
144:20:00 Young: Shovel.
144:20:01 Duke: Okay.
144:20:03 Young: No, we don't need the shovel. You want to use that thing, or do you want me to use the rake?
144:20:05 Duke: Let me rake this time and then I'll get on with the penetrometer, okay?
144:20:09 Young: Okay, fine.
144:20:10 Duke: Okay, you want to...Where do you want to go? There's a place right up here, John, that looks like it's a good...
[As Fendell pans past the high-gain antenna mast, we get a good upslope view toward the rim of a 25-meter crater where John and Charlie will do some sampling before they leave Station 4. See Figure 6-33 in the Preliminary Science Report and Figures 3 ( 82k ) and 4 ( 55k ) from the Stone Mountain chapter ( 5.7 Mb PDF ) in USGS Professional Paper 1048. John will take a pan from the rim of that crater, showing its location relative to the Rover.]144:20:16 Young: Okay, let's not go too far.
144:20:18 Duke: I'm not. It's pretty steep. If you jackrabbit up it, it's pretty easy to do.
[Duke - "It doesn't look so steep, but it's steep!"]144:20:26 Duke: There's a place right here that's got a lot of good ones. You look great, babe. Let me get up-Sun. (Pause) An 11-footer. (Pause)[Charlie may be using a two-footed hop, although it seems more likely that he is using a variant of his skipping stride, leading with one foot as he hops up the slope.]
[Fendell stops the counter-clockwise pan a bit short of the limit and reverses direction.]144:20:55 Young: Man. (Pause)[Charlie's down-Sun 'before' is AS16-110- 17947. John's shadow is to the left, and he is taking a cross-Sun stereopair: AS16-107- 17448 and 17449.]
144:21:00 Duke: Okay, got it. And let me get a locator from up here, too. (Pause) That's going to be in focus.
[Charlie's "locator" for the rake site is AS16-110-17948. Note that the right-rear Rover wheel is off the ground.]144:21:12 Duke: Okay, I'm gonna change this, just to - Okay, Tony. Underneath this regolith up here, we've still got the same deal. Top centimeter or so is...
144:21:24 Young: (Eager to get going) Charlie, rake.
144:21:25 Duke: I'm sorry. (Pause)
144:21:37 Young: Okay. Most of these rocks are white clasts. (Pause)
[That is, they are breccias with a dark matrix and light-colored clasts.]144:21:43 Duke: Glass coated, too, a little...
144:21:45 Young: Yeah, glass coated.
144:21:46 Duke: On some of them.
144:21:50 Young: There's 12 or 13 in that first scoop, and they're mostly white-clast rocks.
144:22:00 Duke: Here comes one that's got a lot of glass on it, John. (Pause)
144:22:08 Young: Okay, that ought to be enough.
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144:22:10 England: Okay, we copy that. You think you're getting breccias there, then?
144:22:15 Duke: Okay.
144:22:17 Young: (Answering Tony) No, we're not sure because they're dust coated, too; and there's glass on them. They could be just shocked rock.
144:22:25 England: Okay.
144:22:27 Young: Okay, that's going into bag 395.
144:22:30 Duke: I don't get the impression...
144:22:31 England: Okay, 335 (sic).
144:22:33 Duke: ...they're breccias, myself.
144:22:34 Young: I don't either. But it's just an impression. (Pause)
[Fendell reaches the clockwise pan limit and finds John and Charlie working about 10 meters behind the Rover.]MP3 Audio Clip ( 9 min 32 sec )
144:22:48 Duke: Man. Boy, oh, boy. I can't believe this. Okay; you want to get an 'after' of that, John? I'll get a shovelful (of soil).
144:22:54 Young: Okay.
144:22:55 Duke: Okay. (Pause)
[John backs away to get a cross-Sun 'after', AS16-107- 17450. Charlie seals the sample bag and then gets ready to collect a soil sample with the rake.]144:23:03 England: And, John, we'd like to consider your going to Intermediate cooling.
144:23:08 Young: Oh, okay. We'll do it.
[John gets a sample bag ready and Charlie lifts a load of soil with the rake. The bag is backlit and as, Charlie pours, we can see the soil tumble into the bag.]144:23:13 Duke: (You) really don't need Intermediate. You need...At least, I'm comfortable just out of Min. Let's see, we need a some more of that, don't we?[In Houston, Flight Director Pete Frank is told that John has been in Minimum cooling for a long time and needs to increase his cooling rate.]
144:23:21 Young: Yeah.
144:23:22 Duke: They wanted a kilo. Okay. (Pause)
[Charlie gets and pours another load of soil. This is an excellent TV picture of soil pouring.]144:23:28 Young: Wow...
144:23:29 Duke: Okay; there's some of that white stuff in the bottom.
144:23:31 Young: Yeah. Look at that.
144:23:32 Duke: That's what I was going to say. Tony, underneath this top gray layer, it's white again up here, just like on the Cayley (Plains).
144:23:40 England: Okay.
144:23:42 Duke: John, that's a kilo, isn't it?
144:23:44 Young: Yeah.
144:23:45 England: Yeah, that's a kilo.
144:23:46 Duke: Okay. The old rake is finished. (Pause) Golly.
[John seals the bag while Charlie stows the rake on the back of the Rover.]144:23:56 Young: Okay, that's in bag 396.
144:23:58 England: Okay, 396.
[John joins Charlie at the back of the Rover. Normally, Charlie would have been standing by so John could put the sealed bag in his SCB.]144:24:04 Duke: Oh, I'm sorry, John. I ran off and left you.
144:24:06 Young: Now, you want me to throw it...Throw it in my bag.
144:24:09 Duke: Okay.
144:24:10 Young: (Having second thoughts) Well, there's probably so many core tubes in there...
[Charlie turns and presents his SCB.]144:24:11 Duke: No, you've got core tubes. Let me carry the rocks. I have an easier time getting the core tubes out if your bag is empty.
144:24:18 Young: Okay.
[John puts the rake-soil sample in Charlie's SCB.]144:24:19 Duke: Look at that view over there. Look at that.
144:24:21 Young: You've got two core tubes too, Charlie. Did you mean to have two of them?
144:24:24 England: Hey, Charlie. We're having a hard time getting...
144:24:26 Duke: No, (lost under Tony) bag (garbled). Okay.
144:24:27 England: ...a perspective on that crater. Could you give us the dimensions, please?
144:24:31 Duke: Where we're standing?
144:24:32 England: Right.
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144:24:36 Duke: What do you think? 10 meters, John?
144:24:38 Young: (Looking toward the south) Yeah. It's an old 10-meter crater; it's really an old one. These other rocks around here might have been caused by this sec(ondary)...Matter of fact, this might of...No, I don't think so. I think these rocks were laid in here when South Ray came in. (Pause) (Reading CDR-9) "Sampling."
[John will now collect samples while Charlie uses a device called the penetrometer to determine various mechanical properties of the soil. The instrument is shown in Figure 8-1 in the Preliminary Science Report and consists of a reference plate which Charlie presses on the ground and then pushes a rod through the plate into the soil. The rod can be fitted with cone-shaped tips of various sizes and, as he pushes, the force he has to use is recorded on a drum. Charlie's next transmission suggests that he was supposed to make measurements on one of benches seen in pre-mission overhead photos of Stone Mountain and then on the slopes on either side of the bench.]144:24:59 Duke: Okay, Tony. On the penetrometer, it's benched. We'll call this crater "the bench" if you want to, and I'll get one uphill, one downhill, and two in the bottom of the crater. How does that sound?
144:25:13 England: Okay, that sounds good to us.
144:25:19 Duke: Okay, and I'll start with a 0.5 (cone size).
144:25:20 England: Okay.
[John gets the gnomon from the rake site and goes off-camera to the right. Charlie is at the back of the Rover and is probably assembling the penetrometer.]144:25:29 Duke: John, I'm glad we got those two core tubes. I think the other two fell off back at the LM.
144:25:35 Young: Okay.
144:25:37 Duke: I don't think I ever put those back in your bag. Did I? Well, we'll see; we got plenty. (Pause)
144:25:57 Young: I'm looking at a rock here, Houston, that is a very angular rock, and it has white clasts (and) it has a brecciated appearance. I'll take a picture of it and sample it for you.
[John takes a series of four "before" pictures of the sample. Frames AS16-107- 17451 and 17452 are a cross-Sun stereopair while 17453 and 17454 are a down-Sun stereopair.]144:26:24 Duke: Okay, I'm going to take my camera off to do this (penetrometer task).
[Charlie goes off-camera to the left so he can put his camera on the LMP seat.]144:26:33 Duke: Boy, this is so neat. Ha! Man, am I having a good time.
[Fendell pans left and finds Charlie; but Charlie promptly goes off-camera to the right. Fendell follows.]144:26:41 England: Charlie, we are, too. (Pause) And while you're bouncing around there, you might keep an eye out for a nearby crater that looks like it may have pulled up some local material.
[Pre-mission thinking about the Apollo 16 site suggested that the Stone Mountain bedrock was different from the rock underlying the Cayley Plains. As mentioned previously, there were expectations that John and Charlie would find volcanic rocks on the mountain and what Houston is looking for, here, is a fresh crater large enough to have dug down into that bedrock. Although it was not known beforehand whether or not there would be significant amounts of South Ray ejecta on the mountain side, John and Charlie have been unequivocal in their statements that there are, indeed, many pieces of South Ray ejecta present.]144:27:04 Duke: Now, we can't walk very far, Tony.[Fendell finds Charlie at the back of the Rover, still assembling the penetrometer.]
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144:27:07 England: Understand. (Pause)
[Charlie slides the reference plate toward the tip of the penetrometer rod.]144:27:12 Duke: Oh, rats.
144:27:14 Young: What's the matter, Charlie?
144:27:19 Duke: I had the 0.5 cone in here, and when I pulled it, I pulled it out, and it came out like it was supposed to. And then I started moving the thing down and it fell off. (Pause) (I don't know) what to do about that. (Long Pause)
[John approaches the back of the Rover.]144:28:07 Duke: John, don't walk right over here. That cone is over there, and I want to get it out.
144:28:14 Young: Hand me a set of tongs, too, will you?
144:28:16 Duke: (Handing a set of tongs to John) Okay, here you go. (Pause)
144:28:22 Young: Okay. Once you get it out, can you put it back on?
144:28:24 Duke: Well, I'll bring it over to you, and if you'll hold it for me, I think I can. (Long Pause)
[Charlie gets the other set of tongs off the back of the Rover. The area where he dropped the penetrometer cone is hidden from view by the Rover, but we can see that he uses the tongs to get the cone and then raises the tongs high enough that John can grab the cone.]144:28:50 Duke: How about whacking it on here, and see if you can get some of the dirt out of the bottom of it? Dadgum thing is not supposed to come out of there without being locked. My penetrometer is around here; wait a minute.[Jones - "This is the first time that either of you has used the tongs. Did your start to use them here because of the slope or the number of rocks? You'll use them pretty regularly from now on."]
[Duke - "I guess it was just time (to start using them). And I dropped that penetrometer head on to the ground and tongs were perfect to pick that up; so we broke those out. And John was over sampling by himself and so he decided he needed a set. So we started using them at this point."]
144:28:59 Young: Okay. (Pause)
[Charlie circles behind John and goes to the CDR seat where, at some point, he had put the penetrometer.]144:29:05 Duke: Okay.
144:29:08 Young: Don't step right there, Charlie. Here's a glass splatter.
144:29:12 Duke: Oh, yeah. I see it. A whole big bubble of it, isn't it?
144:29:16 Young: Yeah.
[John and Charlie are near the left rear fender as they work on the penetrometer. John was facing north while he described the glass splatter.]144:29:18 Duke: Is that on? Yeah, that got it. Thank you. Beautiful. Okay.
144:29:25 Young: I'm going to grab sample this scrap...this glass splatter behind the Rover, Houston.
144:29:33 Duke: Good. Hey, Tony...John, if you see it, there's one under that rock. Is that the one you're talking about?
144:29:40 Young: Yeah.
144:29:41 Duke: Okay.
[John's cross-Sun 'befores' of the glass splatter are AS16-107- 17455 and 17456. Note that he has planted his tongs while he takes the picture and gets a sample bag ready. He is working at the back of the Rover near the right rear wheel.]144:29:42 Duke: Tony, can I start on number 5 on the penetrometer?[Charlie re-positions the reference plate on the penetrometer and goes off-camera to the right.]
144:29:44 England: Okay, that's fine.
144:29:49 Duke: Okay. I'm going up out of this crater, up on the top part of it.
Video Clip ( 2 min 52 sec 0.7 Mb RealVideo or 25 Mb MPEG )
144:29:57 Young: And that's going into bag 397, Houston.
144:30:00 England: Okay, 397.
[This is sample 64455 a 57 gram "glass-coated metaclastic" rock.]144:30:05 Duke: Tony, you just can't believe that South Ray Crater. It is perfectly (looking for the right word) cylindrical - circular. And it's amazing. It's just really apparent that we got two types of rocks there.[Fendell starts panning counter-clockwise.]
[As shown in Figure 18 from USGS Professional Paper 1048, the South Ray impact may have penetrated, first, a 10 to 15 meter layer of regolith, then a 50 to 60 meter layer of dark breccia, and, finally, a layer of light-colored rock, possibly an old layer of impact melt.]144:30:05 Duke: Okay, I'm up on the side now, starting with 5. And we're pushing it in. (Long Pause; Exhales sharply) Okay. That's as far as it's gonna go, Tony. And it went to half...(correcting himself) about three-quarters of the way up to the red mark.
144:31:08 England: Okay. (Pause) Okay. (Pause) We'd like you to...
144:31:16 Duke: (Lost under Tony) going back down in the flat part.
144:31:18 England: ...change to two tenths.
144:31:22 Duke: Okay.
[Fendell finds Charlie south of the Rover. He is well above the Rover and, apparently, has just started running downslope on the way back from his first measurement site. He moves easily using his skipping stride.]144:31:23 Duke: And, Tony, when you push on the thing, you can't push with a very smooth force, and you're gonna see some spikes on the recording, I'm sure.[Jones - "Did you feel that you had good stability?"]
[Duke - "Yeah; that was the most comfortable (stride) for me."]
144:31:40 England: Okay. We understand that. That's fine, Charlie.
[Fendell pans to follow Charlie but stops when John comes into view. John is using the tongs to collect a number of small rocks. Although he has his back to us, it is evident that he has a sample bag in his left hand and is having no trouble putting the rocks in with the scoop.]144:31:45 Duke: And if you want my opinion on the thing, I don't think we're hitting hard ground. I think what I did is probably hit a rock, and I should have probably moved this thing over a little bit.
144:31:59 England: Okay. We'll just go with the 0.2 and see how that does.
144:32:04 Duke: Okay. (Pause)
[During the preceding conversation between Charlie and Tony, John used to tongs to tip a hand-sized rock upright so he could get the tongs around a narrow dimension of the rock. He then raised it without difficulty.]MP3 Audio Clip ( 9 min 52 sec )[The Rover moves, probably because Charlie is changing tips on the penetrometer.]
[John takes a couple of steps backward as he seals the sample bag. This suggests a high level of confidence in his ability to move around this rock-strewn area.]
144:32:15 Young: Okay, Houston. I'm sampling independently, and I've got four samples in bag 398. They're so dust covered that I can't tell anything about them.
144:32:24 England: Okay; understand.
144:32:25 Young: But I suspect...They're lying by this big rock, and they may be the same kind of rock.
[Frame AS16-107- 17457 may be an "after" of this sample site. The samples are 64475 to 64478, of which 64475 is the largest, a 1.03 kg breccia. As shown in Figures 41b and 41c from USGS Professional Paper 1048, these samples have been identified in AS16-107- 17453 and 17454, which are the down-Sun 'befores' John took of the angular rock he collected at 144:25:57.]144:32:36 Young: Charlie, I'm going to get that bag (meaning a spare SCB) out from underneath your seat and put the samples in there.[Charlie comes into view with the penetrometer and John heads for the LMP's side of the Rover.]
Video Clip ( 3 min 36 sec 0.9 Mb RealVideo or 32 Mb MPEG )
144:32:39 Duke: Okay. You know, John, with all these rocks here, I'm not sure we're getting Descartes.
144:32:47 Young: That's right. I'm not either.
144:32:48 Duke: We ought to go down to a crater without any rocks. (Pause)
[Charlie is suggesting that craters with significant numbers of surface rocks on this part of Stone Mountain have been dug by South Ray ejecta and that they want to find a crater without rocks in hope that the South Ray contamination will be less.]144:32:59 England: And, Charlie, you're on the big eye. We're watching.[During the mission review, Charlie commented on the fact that the Apollo crews visited only six sites of the Moon and that none of the crews had time to do a definitive of even those small areas.]
[Duke - "Trying to figure out the Moon with what we're doing in Apollo is like having one drop of water to study out of the whole Pacific Ocean, really."]
[Jones - "Just a few clues and hints to the general picture."]
[Charlie turns his back to the Rover and, as Fendell gets him centered, he pushes the penetrometer into the ground with his left hand. Gradually, he sinks to his knees and then bounds forward to regain his balance. Only the recording drum is above the surface.]
144:33:01 Duke: Okay, the two-tenths...(Stops to listen) The two-tenths...You see that? The 0.2 went all the way in.
144:33:07 England: We understand. Can you tell how far it stroked up on the pressure? Do you think it reached the hilt?
144:33:16 Duke: No, it was very light pressure, frankly. (Pause)
[Charlie bobs down onto his right knee, holds his position long enough to get the recording drum with his right hand, and pulls the penetrometer out of the ground as he rises and runs forward.]144:33:22 Duke: Maybe it just depends on whether you hit a rock down there or not. This is really loosely consolidated. This regolith. Loosely packed.
[Charlie pulls the reference plate down to the end of the rod.]144:33:36 England: Okay. Was that (recording drum) index on 6?
144:33:41 Duke: That's affirm. Going to 7.
[Charlie adjusts the recording drum.]144:33:48 Young: You don't mind if I put those bags in your seat, do you, Charlie?
144:33:51 Duke: Not a bit.
[Charlie goes off-camera to the right and Fendell follows.]144:33:55 Duke: Hey, turn the big eye up to the right, Tony, if you want to watch this other one.
144:34:02 England: Okay, we're coming around. (Pause)
144:34:12 Duke: This seems a little more firmly packed here.
144:34:15 England: Okay. (Pause)
[Fendell finds Charlie as he gives the penetrometer a final push. About a half-meter of the rod is sticking out of the ground. The southern part of the South Ray ejecta blanket is in the background.]144:34:23 Duke: Okay, that one bottomed out, now, at...
144:34:26 England: Good show.
144:34:28 Duke: Oh, it's up above the red mark. (Pause)
[Charlie pulls the penetrometer out of the ground and shakes some dust off.]144:34:34 Duke: And it got progressively harder (to push the penetrometer in). So I think that was a good reading. I don't think that was necessarily a rock down there.
144:34:42 England: Good show. We finally guessed right (on where to do the measurement).
[Charlie resets the reference plate and the recording drum and moves off-camera to the right. Fendell follows.]144:34:49 Duke: Okay. Going to (recording drum position) 8 and I'm going downslope. (Long Pause)
144:35:02 Duke: John, this crater over here looks like it might be - just downslope here - looks like it might be one of the Cincos, and it could be Descartes material, because it's just some little blocks around it. And there's some little blocks inside the rim, too. (Pause)
[The size of ejecta fragments are largest near the rim of a crater and become smaller with distance. The blocks at this site which seem to be South Ray ejecta are of a certain size and Charlie is speculating that a crater showing only blocks of a noticeably smaller size might not be contaminated.]Movie Clip (0.8Mb; mov)[As mentioned following 144:07:29, they are about 80 meters west of Cinco 'a'.]
[As Charlie moves below the Rover, he angles across slope toward the northwest. Fendell is only able to keep Charlie's PLSS in view. He stops and Fendell is able to get him centered.]
144:35:24 Duke: Okay. Here we go.
[Charlie is facing up slope, with the penetrometer slightly above him. He leans forward and presses on the recording drum and, after encountering some resistance, he gets it in a few inches before it stops. He presses on the drum two more times, getting about half the rod into the ground in the process. He then gives a final push and the rod sinks all the way into the ground.]144:35:31 Young: Okay, Houston. I'm digging an exploratory trench right here to see if the material is black.
144:35:41 England: Okay. We copy that, John.
144:35:43 Young: No, it's sure not. I mean 'the material is not white'. It's just the same as it...
[John is thinking that, as with the white soil they uncovered with their boots on the rim of Plum Crater, shocked/shattered soil may have been throw up onto Stone Mountain by the South Ray impact. By digging a trench, he might reveal a white layer or, at least, signs of layering underneath the surface layer.]144:35:51 Duke: Aghh, rats! (Pause)[As the penetrometer sinks into the ground on Charlie's final push, he ends up balanced on his toes and his left hand, which is resting on the top of the drum. He tries to run uphill to get his feet under him but, after vigorously treading regolith for a few seconds, he gives up and falls forward onto his hands.]
[Charlie pushes himself back and, once his torso is over his knees, he rises without difficulty.]144:35:56 Duke: (To Tony) How'd you like that?
144:35:57 England: Beautiful maneuver there, Charlie. What do you do for an encore?
144:36:02 Duke: (Resting for a moment) Okay. This thing is...(Stops to listen) Okay. I went...(Laughs) I went down...That one bottomed out.
Video Clip ( 3 min 13 sec 0.8 Mb RealVideo or 29 Mb MPEG )
144:36:10 England: Okay. We saw that.
[While facing upslope, Charlie bobs down to his right knee and retrieves the penetrometer.]144:36:12 Duke: But it went all the way in. I mean the force.
144:36:19 Young: Okay, Houston. I've gone down about (pause) a shovel width, and it's all the same material. And I don't see any layering in it or anything.
144:36:44 England: Okay. We understand that, John.
[John takes a cross-Sun stereopair of his trench, AS16-107-17458 and 17459.]144:36:50 Duke: Okay. I've sequenced to number 9, and I'm stowing this beauty.[Charlie moves upslope toward the back of the Rover and uses a slow, hopping sidestep. He advances the recording drum and then taps the penetrometer several times to loosen the dust he kicked onto it. Fendell follows.]
[Duke - "I wasn't sinking in too far."]
[Jones - "No. The toe on the uphill side isn't penetrating not more than an inch and a half."]
144:36:56 England: Okay.
144:37:01 Duke: And that one test, downhill, was on the steepest part.
144:37:06 England: Okay.
[As Charlie pushes the penetrometer into its stowage slot at the back of the Rover, we see the whole vehicle move and, in particular, get a demonstration that the right rear wheel - the one behind the LMP seat - is off the ground.]144:37:09 Duke: Tony, when I push that beauty (meaning the penetrometer) in there, it almost turns the Rover over. (Pause) Tony, do you want this double core in the bench here or downslope where I think is probably closer to (being) Descartes?
144:37:43 Young: Okay, Houston. I've got a sample out of the deepest part of this trench that I'm digging, and it's going into bag...(Pause) Bag 399.
144:38:01 England: Okay; bag 399.
[John takes a cross-Sun stereopair of 'afters' of his trench, AS16-107- 17460 and 17461. He then takes a down-Sun 'after', 17462.]144:38:13 Duke: Did you copy that, Tony? My question?[Charlie takes the rake off of the extension handle and puts the rake down on the back of the Rover. He will attach the extension handle to the upper core tube so he can drive the double core into the ground without leaning over too far.]
144:38:16 England: Right, Charlie. Why don't we just go ahead and take it downslope there about your last penetrometer place?
144:38:24 Duke: Okay, will do. (Pause)
[Charlie goes off-camera to the right to join John. Fendell follows but reaches the clockwise pan limit before he finds them.]144:38:31 Duke: Okay, John, I'm going to come over there...
144:38:34 Young: What do you need, Charlie?
144:38:35 Duke: ...and get a couple of cores from you.
[Charlie will get the core sections out of John's SCB.]144:38:39 Young: Okay. I'm going to leave those two cores in that (extra) bag. It makes it stand up.
[John is referring to the extra SCB he got from under the LMP seat. It also contains a couple of core tubes. The rigidity they provide may be the reason the bag stands up nicely when John places it on the ground.]144:38:44 Duke: Yeah. That's great. That's the lower. Upper.
[The lower core tube sections have hardened bits so they can be hammered into the ground.]144:38:53 Young: I wish I could say these rocks look different, Houston, but they don't. They look (much like the rocks around the LM and the EVA-1 stations).
144:38:58 England: Okay. We understand. And do you see a blocky rim crater within walking distance? (Pause)
Video Clip ( 2 min 47 sec 0.7 Mb RealVideo or 25 Mb MPEG )
144:39:18 Duke: Blocky rimmed?
144:39:20 Young: Blocky rim.
[Fendell begins to pan counter-clockwise.]144:39:21 Duke: But what is this one?[NASA photo S72-38435 shows Tony watching the action from the CapCom console. The digital MET readout above and just to the right of his video monitor reads 144:39:17. Deke Slayton is standing behind Tony; and Fred Haise, the backup Commander, is sitting just beyond Deke.]
144:39:22 Young: How about right up there, Charlie?
144:39:23 Duke: Yeah. That was one right up there. Uh-huh. Yeah. That's 30 meters away, up there. Getting out of this little crater is pretty...pretty hard; but after that I think you'll be able to hack it. (Pause) Okay. I've got an upper and a lower. (Pause) (Noticing that Fendell is doing a pan) You guys looking at the scenery?
144:39:52 England: We sure are. It's really outstanding.
[The TV picture moves slightly throughout Fendell's pan, an indication that Charlie is working at the Rover.]144:39:57 Duke: Pretty view from up...Have you seen the lunar module? You shoot 12 o'clock right now on the TV.
144:40:03 Young: How much time we got (left) here?
144:40:06 England: Okay. You've got about 22 minutes left.
144:40:09 Duke: We've got 58 total, John.
144:40:12 Young: (Hearing Tony) Okay.
144:40:16 England: No. We don't have the resolution to see the LM.
144:40:23 Young: Charlie, get a picture of the LM.
144:40:25 Duke: I did, with the 500.
144:40:26 Young: Okay. (Long Pause)
144:40:57 Duke: Don't poop yourself, John.
144:40:59 Young: Not doing any work, Charlie. (Pause)
[Fendell finds John as he makes his way upslope out of the highly-eroded crater next to the spot where he parked the Rover. A screen grab shows John as he gets hear the upslope, southern rim at about 144:41:07, which is about 1 min 49 seconds after the start of the TV clip. David Harland has assembled a portion of the Station 4 pan Charlie will take just before they leave for Station 5. This portion of the pan shows most of the highly-eroded crater, including Rover tracks made after John continued upslope before looping back to park where he did. The tracks John made as he walked across the crater from the Rover and then climbed up to the southern rim are clearly visible. A labeled version of Brian McInall's Station 4 Planimetric map shows the approximate point where John reach the rim and, then, continued on the 25-m crater where he planned to do some sampling. ]144:41:03 Duke: Good show. Okay. The old double core is assembled. Tony, in the regolith, you see little bright speckles looking at you, and I think it's glass particles. John has already sampled some of them. (Long Pause)
[Charlie crosses the TV picture from left to right with the core tube while, in the distance, John approaches the rim of the 25-meter crater south of the Rover. As indicated in Figure 4 from the Stone Mountain chapter of USGS Professional Paper 1048, he will stop about 75 meters from the Rover.]Video Clip ( 2 min 29 sec 0.6 Mb RealVideo or 22 Mb MPEG )
MP3 Audio Clip ( 10 min 33 sec )
144:41:56 Young: Okay, Houston. Here's some (sic) blocky-rimmed secondary. Here's a nice little one.
144:42:04 England: Okay, John. That might be a good place to get a rock. We're really looking for one (meaning a crater) where the rock around the crater should come from the crater; not from the secondary.
[Houston is looking for Stone Mountain bedrock and not South Ray ejecta. A secondary crater, dug by relatively-low-velocity South Ray ejecta, is unlikely to show much bedrock, if any.]144:42:19 Young: Yeah. I would susppose (sic) that all of the...Do you think all the blocks on the upslope side were the secondary that made it? Don't you reckon, if it's from South Ray? Let me go down and sample off the rim...off the south rim.
144:42:34 England: Okay. Sounds good.
[Fendell zooms in on John and follows him as he turns to his right and moves in a westerly direction.]144:42:35 Young: How about that?[John is saying that the rocks on the side of the crater opposite South Ray are likely to be the South Ray ejecta while the rocks on the side toward South Ray might not be. In a few minutes, he will take a pan from the rim of the crater. Frames AS16-107- 17473 to 17485 show the crater and a pile of blocks on the inner, northeast wall. This wall is on the side directly opposite South Ray and the blocks are probably South Ray ejecta which came in at a relatively low angle.]
144:42:36 England: Sounds good.
144:42:39 Young: I think you really need a primary impact crater to avoid the problem.
144:42:47 England: Yeah. You're right, John.
[A primary impact is one by a high-velocity projectile coming in from elsewhere in the solar system. A typical impact velocity would be 20 to 30 km/s, rather than 1 to 2 km/sec in the case of a secondary impact. In a primary impact, the projectile is usually vaporized and, if the crater is large enough, blocks on the rim are likely to have been dug up out of the bedrock. The nearest large crater that is likely to be a primary is probably Crown.]144:42:49 Duke: Tony, mark me down for one more...(Stops to listen) Mark me down for one more blow. Trying to get the dust off. Man, I don't want to get down there too far (because) this thing is steep. Okay, Tony. I'm to the 2:30 position of the Rover, and I'm going to start with this double core. Got it assembled. Okay. I pushed it in. (Straining slightly) Almost up...Well, I did. I got in almost to the top of the first stem by pushing it in.
[The core sections are each 42 cm long. See Figures 15 and 16 in Judy Allton's Apollo Toolbook. NASA photo S72-33898 shows Charlie driving a double core during training at the Kennedy Space Center on 22 March 1972. Note that he is hitting the core with the flat of the hammer. Note, also, that a member of the support team is standing behind him, holding a hose carrying chilled water to circulate through Charlie's Liquid-Cooled Garment (LCG).]144:43:31 England: Okay. I understand.
[John stops and puts the gnomon down. He is well above the Rover and makes a striking silhouette against the black sky.]144:43:32 Duke: There comes your 7-footer cross-Sun, and I'll get you a locator. I'm just going to get you a locator now that I'm downslope. It (meaning the core tube) won't be in the ground (when the "locator" is taken). Procedurally, that's a little wrong, but I'll do it anyway.
144:43:45 England: That's okay.
144:43:47 Duke: It'll save me some work. (Long Pause)
[Charlie's "before" photos are a cross-Sun stereopair, AS16-110- 17949 and 17950, and a 'locator', 17951.]144:44:00 Duke: (Singing) I've been hammering on the railroad, all...(Pause) Okay, Tony, (I'm) about halfway up the second one. It's getting a little harder, but it's going on in.[As indicated in the dialog at 144:52:01, John has the scoop with him. He plants it and then puts the spare SCB down as well. Fendell pans right, probably looking for Charlie.]
Video Clip ( 2 min 24 sec 0.6 Mb RealVideo or 21 Mb MPEG )
144:44:18 England: Okay. Maybe we're getting down to Descartes there.
144:44:27 Duke: That might be. (Pause) Boy, those rays from South Ray you can just track right across, through Stubby, right on up to Survey. (Pause)
[Fendell finds Charlie. He is standing north of the double core and is hitting the top of the extension handle left-handed. He is looking southwest in the general direction of South Ray. He stops hammering.]144:44:45 Duke: You know, Tony, South Ray was mapped as as big a crater as North Ray, and it's not nearly as big. It's just the ray pattern - the whiteness - that makes it look as big.
144:44:56 Young: No, Charlie. It wasn't.
144:44:57 Duke: It was not? Oh, I thought it was. Excuse me.
[Charlie steps in close to the extension handle, nearly straddling it, and pulls the core out with both hands. It sticks for a moment and then comes out easily. During John's next transmission, Charlie inverts the core tube so the soil won't run out and then sidesteps slowly up the slope toward the Rover. Fendell follows.]144:45:02 Young: It was when we started (planning the Descartes landing), but when we got...(Pause) Okay, Houston. I'm standing on the rim of this crater over here. The only...the only rock I see on the south rim of this obvious secondary is (pause) not too big. I can get down into the crater and look down in it, and see if I can scratch away to a bench, if you'd like to do that.[At some point, John takes a down-Sun stereopair of the gnomon and the area where he will collect a soil sample. These photos are AS16-107- 17463 and 17464. In the latter frame, note the core tubes which are stowed in pockets in the extra SCB that John has placed on the ground to receive individual sample bags. At various times during the mission, both John and Charlie commented on the need for a handle on the SCB that would stick up, as on some grocery sacks, and make it easier to manipulate.]
[John is suggesting that he climb down into the crater and scrape soil off part of the wall to try to find bedrock. If the crater depth is greater than the regolith depth, there would be a bench partway down the inner wall that would mark the regolith/bedrock boundary.]144:45:43 England: Okay. I don't think we need to do that, John. Charlie will bring up a rake there; and, maybe from that, we'll be able to get Descartes.[Once he gets to the Rover, Charlie lays the core across the back of the Rover, takes his camera off so he can put it on the LMP seat.]
144:45:53 Duke: (At the LMP seat; chuckling) "I'll bring up a rake." Thanks. (Tony laughs)
144:45:59 Young: Are you getting a rake, Charlie?
144:46:01 Duke: I'm finishing up the double core right now. I've got it back here, and I'm taking it apart.
144:46:03 Young: Okay. (Pause)
[Charlie is now at the back of the Rover and Fendell starts a counter-clockwise pan.]144:46:11 Duke: Capped; bottom section. (Pause)
144:46:22 England: And, Charlie, did you call off the section numbers?
144:46:25 Young: Okay; again, that rock again is going to be...(Stops to listen)
144:46:28 Duke: (Answering Tony) No, not yet. I'll get them. (Pause) Okay. That's full. Bottom section was 38, Tony.
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144:46:38 England: Okay. (Pause)
144:46:49 Duke: Man, this is working neat. Those things (meaning the core caps) are just going right back on. (Pause) Okay. It's all rammed home. (Pause)
144:47:05 Young: What I'll do, Houston, is get a soil sample off this rim. That's the only thing I can be assured of that's Descartes right at this point.
144:47:16 England: Okay.
[John's assumption is that, while the area is liberally sprinkled with fragmental ejecta from South Ray, there is little fines material from that source. Analyses in USGS Professional Paper 1048 supports this hypothesis. He takes a down-Sun "before" stereopair, AS16-107- 17463 and 17464.]144:47:20 Young: That's going in bag 400.[Fendell finds John at about the same place he was when we last saw him. Fendell zooms in.]
144:47:23 England: Okay; bag 400. (Pause)
144:47:31 Duke: Okay. Top (core) section, Tony, is number 43. Pass on. (Pause)
144:47:42 Young: (Guffawing) Charlie.
[John drops sample bag 400 in the extra SCB.]144:47:46 England: Okay, Charlie. Is that 23?
144:47:49 Duke: 43; four three.
144:47:51 England: Okay; copy.
[John takes a cross-Sun stereopair of 'afters', AS16-107- 17465 and 17466. Not surprisingly, the scoop is not in the same position as in the 'befores'.]144:47:52 Young: Okay. From this vantage, Houston, I'd like to shoot a pan...
144:47:59 England: Have at it, John.
[John turns to face down-Sun.]144:48:00 Young: It might be able to make some stereo...Might be able to make some stereo with it. (Long Pause)
[John starts his Station 4 pan. By the time he starts his next transmission, he is facing the Rover. In taking most of the pictures, he bends his knees, arches his back, and gets up on his toes so he can aim the camera at the horizon. The best TV sequence of an astronaut taking a pan is probably the one showing Jack Schmitt taking a pan at Apollo 17's Station 3.]144:48:30 Young: I tell you, this is a graphic illustration of a secondary from South Ray, though, (straining to get the camera aimed high enough) and it'll show up good if I can bend over good enough to get it.[This first portion of John's pan includes frames AS16-107- 17467 to 17472. ]
[Frame 17468 shows Baby Ray Crater at the right and South Ray Crater at the left. ]
[Frame 17471 shows North Ray Crater at the right. Note the inbound Rover tracks coming up hill from bottom center and going out of the image at the right.]
[In frame 17472, Ravine Crater is the large impact feature on the lower slopes of Smoky Mountain.]
[David Harland has assembled the portion showing Smoky Mountain, North Ray Crater, the Rover, and the SCB.]
[John has completed about 3/4 of the pan, including all of the crater. These pictures are AS16-107- 17473 to 17479.]144:48:47 Duke: Okay, Tony, the double core is under my seat[Frame 17473 shows Charlie working on the core at the back of the Rover.]
[In frame 17474, the Rover is at the left side. The SCB that John brought with him to hold individual sample bags is in the foreground. Charlie is at the back of the Rover. Note the footprints that John made as he made his way up to the Station 4 crater.]
[Frame 17477 shows a large amount of debris uphill of John's sampling location at the Station 4 crater.]
[Frames 17478 and 17479 show the central portion of the 25-m crater. Note that there is very little debris on the western (right) side of the crater.]
[As John just noted, this crater was almost certainly formed by a large piece of highly-shocked ejecta from South Ray Crater which plowed into the side of Stone Mountain at relatively low velocity and came apart. Hence, this is a secondary crater.]
[Next, John breaks the sequence of pan frames to get more complete coverage of the debris mound, possibly changing f-stops in the process. In taking frame AS16-107- 17480, John aims his camera down to show the mound of debris in the bottom of the crater. Then he turns to his left to get more complete coverage of the debris mound.]
[Frame 17482 is lightstruck.]
144:48:50 England: Okay.
144:48:51 Duke: All finished. Hey, do you really want me to grab the rake, Tony? I got to go up and help John?
144:49:03 England: We're getting that (decision made), Charlie.
144:49:06 Duke: Say again.
[John turns to his right, although not quite as far around as where he interrupted the pan, and adjusts the f-stop. The final frames are AS16-107- 17483 to 17489.]144:49:07 England: Okay. Yeah, we'd like you to take the rake on up there.
144:49:12 Duke: Okay. (I'm) putting it together now. (Pause) Fred Haise gets a 6-months' supply (of beer) for thinking of that rake thing. That is really neat!
[Fred Haise is the Apollo 16 backup Commander. The Apollo rake was developed by Caltech geologist Lee Silver.]Video Clip ( 3 min 13 sec 0.7 Mb RealVideo or 26 Mb MPEG )[Duke, from the 1972 Technical Debrief - "Fredo gets a great big case of beer for thinking of that way to stow that rake on the back (of the Rover)."]
[John finishes his pan and looks over the Rover toward the plains.]
144:49:35 Young: I'll tell you one thing, we're sure up in the air.
144:49:39 Duke: Yep.
144:49:40 Young: I told those guys at the VAB we were going to be 200 feet higher than they are. We're a lot higher than the VAB. (Pause)
[Charlie is off-camera to the left, but we can see the shadow and he makes his way uphill to join John.]144:49:53 England: That makes a pretty good TV picture standing up there. The big eye is on ya'.[The Vehicle Assembly Building at the Kennedy Space Center is 525 feet (160 meters) tall. As shown in Figure 23 in the Stone Mountain chapter of USGS Professional Paper 1048, the elevation of Station 4 above the lunar reference surface is 7975 meters while Stations 8 and 9, which are at the base of the mountain, are at about 7800 meters. As shown in Figure 3 in the Central Region chapter, the LM is at an elevation of about 7845. Consequently, the altitude difference between Station 4 and the base of the mountain is about 175 meters - greater than the height of the VAB - while the LM-Station 4 difference is only 130 meters.]
[With regard to John's comment at 143:55:31 about Florida being flat, the VAB is 180 feet taller than the highest hill in the entire state.]
144:50:01 Young: Roger. I'm just trying to figure out...Dadgummit! You know where we landed? Charlie/Alpha 81! (That is, CA.0/81.0.)
144:50:11 Duke: What?
144:50:12 Young: Charlie/Alpha 81. We're about 200 meters north of Double Spot.
[As can be seen in the traverse map, the planned landing spot was CA.0/81.0. On the other hand, a point "200 meters north of Double Spot" would be near CA.6/80.6. Pan Camera frame 4623 shows the actual landing spot 300 meters due north of Double Spot at CB.1/80.6 These difference are too small to be of operational significance, but it is interesting - and not surprising - that John knows the craters around the planned landing site well enough to make this determination from a distance of 4 kilometers and an elevation angle of only 1.9 degrees and without reference to a map. The one thing that makes the identification possible is the fact that the surface near the LM slopes down to the south, dropping 50 meters in about 700 meters on a north-south line through the LM. This increases John's apparent viewing angle from 1.9 degrees to about 6 degrees. All of the Apollo commanders who intended to land at specific spots - this excludes only Armstrong - showed great professional interest in figuring out exactly where they landed.]144:50:21 Duke: Yeah. There's Double Spot.
144:50:22 Young: Darn right.
144:50:23 Duke: Exactly north of Double Spot, John.
144:50:25 Young: Well, I'll be doggoned.
144:50:28 Duke: That's where the L&A says we're going to land!
144:50:31 Young: I knew we made some kind of a mistake (Laughs).
144:50:36 Duke: Man, this is tough going, ain't it?.
144:50:39 Young: That is absolutely remarkable.
[Charlie comes into view, carrying the rake. He is hopping slowly up the slope, leading with his left foot.]144:50:43 Duke: Hey, John, did you make those little footprints here around in this (garbled)? Yeah, I guess you did
144:50:48 Young: No, sir. I didn't. I came across that ridge there, and I don't advise you to get down in there either.
[Charlie stops about two meters below John.]144:50:56 Duke: Man, this is steep. Okay. Where do you want the...
144:51:00 Young: Well, on the rim, I think, Charlie.
144:51:01 Duke: Why don't we get outside the rim? That would be definitely Descartes. Right down here. Okay...
[Charlie wants to rake where he is, below the rim on the outer slope.]144:51:05 Young: The object is to get the stuff that's been knocked out of the ground and landed on the rim.
[John is standing on the rim and points to his feet to emphasize the point. Generally, ejecta from the deepest part of an impact crater will land on the rim. Charlie starts climbing again.]144:51:10 Duke: Yeah, I know it, but I thought that would definitely...We could say that would be definitely...Okay, I'll sample right up here.
[John usually defers to Charlie with regard to sampling but in this case - probably because he has already spent several minutes looking at the crater and thinking about it - he is insistent.]144:51:17 Duke: That's a definite secondary right there, isn't it?
[Charlie points at a small secondary with the rake.]144:51:19 Young: Boy, I mean to tell you if that's not (garbled) I never saw one.
144:51:26 Duke: Okay. This is...
144:51:27 Young: Hank Moore would love to see that.
[Duke - "I think Moore was one of our geologists."]144:51:30 Duke: (Now on the rim) Yeah. Whew! Hey, let me take it easy now. I'm pooped.
144:51:37 Young: Yeah. Just slow down. Let me get the rake sample, Charlie. (Pause) Get it.
144:51:43 Duke: Okay. There's a...lots of goodies right there on the inner rim.
144:51:48 Young: Yeah. Yeah. That's where I'll rake, right there. Okay?
[John starts raking just inside the apparent rim.]144:51:53 Duke: Okay. Don't fall into that mutha. Excuse me.
[Charlie is apologizing for his coarse language, using "mutha", meaning "mother" and short for "motherf...er".]144:51:59 Young: Pretty good size, isn't it?[Duke - "It was real steep. I mean, it was real tough walking up there. And right over that (rim), there's this crater on the other side that's real deep. That's what we keep talking about; 'Don't fall in there.' You can't see it in the TV, because the TV's below and you're looking sort of up at the rim. But, on the other side, it was really steep."]
144:52:01 Duke: Yeah. Here, let me have the shovel. Okay. I got it. (Pause)
[Charlie turns to his right, gets the scoop, turns back to face John, and plants the scoop to his left. He then gets a sample bag off his camera. Meanwhile, John is slowly dragging the scoop through the regolith.]MP3 Audio Clip ( 5 min 36 sec )
144:52:14 Duke: See if you can get...That's a clod. That's an indurated clod (that is, a relatively cohesive clump of soil created in the impact).
[John holds the rake vertically and shakes the soil out.]144:52:21 Duke: Here's some rocks. Good deal, boy. That's great! (As John reaches to start another swath) Wait a minute; let's fill this one up, and then...(As John lifts the rake) Hey, John, watch it. (Holding the sample bag relatively low) Is that okay for you?
144:52:32 Young: (Finishing the pour) Wait a minute. (Pause)
144:52:36 Duke: Super. Got them, every one, in there.
Video Clip ( 2 min 50 sec 0.7 Mb RealVideo or 25 Mb MPEG )
144:52:40 Young: Okay.
144:52:41 Duke: Okay. Real dust-covered, mostly centimeter size, Tony. About 15 frags. Some smaller than that.
[John starts a second swath.]144:52:52 Young: I've already got my shovel full (that is, the rake-soil sample) here, Charlie.
144:52:54 Duke: Okay. Of the dirt? (Pause)
[John shakes the dirt out of the rake while Charlie examines the fragments they have already collected.]144:53:01 Duke: I hate to tell you this, but I think it's indurated regolith.
144:53:06 Young: (Garbled)
144:53:07 Duke: Because I'm just breaking it up.
144:53:10 Young: (Pouring) Very friable, Houston. Like dirt clods. Which is probably what it is. Want to get another one?
144:53:19 Duke: Yeah. Can you try another one? You copy that, Tony?
144:53:25 England: Say again, Charlie.
144:53:28 Duke: I don't think these are rocks. If they are, they are very friable. Think it's just indurated regolith.
144:53:38 England: Okay. We copy.
[According to USGS Professional Paper 1048, this rake sample contains 13 fragments - some of which are metaclastic rocks made of compacted regolith while others are breccias.]144:53:40 Young: Well, there may be a rock or two in there.[After shaking the soil out, John raises the rake to make the third pour.]
144:53:44 Duke: Wait a minute. You got to get them all to one corner (of the rake before pouring), John. There you go. Okay. (Pause) That's got it.
[Charlie seals the bag.]144:53:55 Young: Maybe some of them are rocks. Okay, Houston. That was three scoops, and we're not documenting this to the best of our ability, because I think we're standing too close to the rim here to...
144:54:09 Duke: Down-Sun, I'd be in big hole.
144:54:12 Young: If Charlie goes down-Sun to take the picture, we're in trouble.
144:54:15 England: All right. We can see that.
144:54:17 Young: It ought to be in the pan.
144:54:18 England: Right. We see it.
[Charlie drops the sealed bag in the extra SCB, which is standing on the ground near his left foot.]144:54:19 Young: The locator shot will be in the pan, and I'm going to shoot this...This is an up-Sun "after" of the rake sample, stereo.
[John's stereopair is AS16-107- 17490 and 17491. Note that neither the gnomon nor the extra SCB has moved since John took his pan.]144:54:31 Duke: That was in bag 401, Tony.
144:54:34 England: Okay, 401.
144:54:37 Duke: (Grabbing the scoop) Yeah. Okay, Tony. You want us to get the...We can get the dense rocks here for the padded bags (as per CDR/LMP-9). There's plenty of them around, but they'll probably be out of South Ray. All these blocks that we see here came out of this secondary.
144:54:54 Young: Yep.
144:54:55 Duke: Every one.
144:54:56 England: Okay. We copy that. (Pause) We'll collect...
144:55:02 Duke: Okay, what does that mean? You want us to get...(Stops to listen)
144:55:02 England: ...the padded bags back near the Rover. There's no point in going back up there.
[Charlie's "All these blocks we see here" seems to have made Tony think that Charlie was proposing to go down to the Rover to get the padded bags and then bring them back up to the crater rim. As becomes clear in a moment, he meant "here" to mean Station 4 as a whole.]144:55:08 Duke: Okay. Well, that's what we're going to do. I just wondered if secondary (ejecta) was okay for you.[In Houston, Flight Director Pete Frank and Backroom spokesman Jim Lovell are discussing strategy for Station 5.]
[Charlie leans on the scoop and reaches down to get the extra SCB.]
144:55:14 England: Okay. We're getting them to work it. We will need a second pan in the area of the (core) penetrations there.
Video Clip ( 3 min 7 sec 0.8 Mb RealVideo or 27 Mb MPEG )
144:55:24 Duke: I'll do that.
[Charlie has started downslope, going directly toward the Rover. He is on a cross-slope path and is using his skipping stride. Every once in a while, he dislodges a fist-size rock, which then rolls two or three meters downhill before coming to rest in a depression. John has gone toward the left, staying on the crater rim for a while before starting down. When he does start downhill, he uses the loping, foot-to-foot stride.]144:55:26 Duke: Boy, it is loose (pause) on your footing here, John. I feel like I'm really sinking in.
144:55:35 Young: Charlie, you really are. (Pause) Boy, is this ever neat! (Laughs) If I could just figure out some way to keep my hands closed (around the rake handle).
144:55:51 Duke: Yeah. That's the hard part about it, isn't it?
[Charlie has stopped to examine a half-meter, angular boulder, standing downslope of it to get a good look.]144:55:54 Duke: You know, John, that black stuff is glass - on those rocks.
144:55:57 Young: Sure it is. That's what I said.
144:55:59 Duke: Yeah.
144:56:04 England: Okay, fellows, we'd like to get you packed up there. We'll save the padded bags for later.
144:56:11 Young: Okay.
144:56:15 England: And your (heading) gyro is good. We won't need to torque it.
144:56:17 Duke: I think we have enough rocks from the South Ray.
144:56:23 Young: (Responding to Tony) Okay.
[Charlie turns to look off-camera to the right toward South Ray.]144:56:25 Duke: I got to get one more view from up here. John, I'll take the pan from right here.
144:56:36 Young: Okay. I'll go ahead and pack up, Charlie.
144:56:38 Duke: Okay. (Pause)
[Charlie plants the scoop, pushing it several times to make sure it is secure, and then hangs the extra SCB from the handle before starting the pan. This action suggests that a standard part of the geology tool kit ought to be a stake with a hook at the top so that the stake could be planted at a sampling site with a bag hanging in easy reach.]144:56:49 Duke: Okay, let's see; how do I do this? f/11 at 74. Hmmm. Click. (Pause) Click, click, click. Okay, Tony. Do you want me to change the mags on the 16(-mm camera)? It's about empty. That...
144:57:15 England: That's affirmative.
144:57:16 Duke: Twelve frames per second runs it through there.
[Charlie has just taken the pan frame centered on the Rover. The frames to this point are AS16-110- 17952 to 17974.]144:57:18 England: Right; go ahead.[Frames 17960 and 17961 show John working at the back of the Rover. Note that the gate on the back of the Rover is open.]
[David Harland notes that frames 17962 to 17968 show the Rover tracks made at about 144:04:09 as John drove downhill past the Station 4 crater to the place where he parked.]
144:57:20 Duke: Okay, will do.
144:57:21 England: Should be mag R.
[As Charlie faces upslope, he has to get up on his toes, flex his knees, and lean way back.]144:57:25 Duke: Okay. Man, if I get the top of this one in that picture, it's going to be a miracle. (Long Pause)
MP3 Audio Clip ( 5 min 33 sec )
144:57:44 Duke: Okay, Tony. Doing this pan, I've moved about 2 feet downslope, so I don't know that things are going to match up too well or not.
144:57:51 England: Ah, we'll make it work.
144:57:55 Duke: (Finishing the pan) Okay. And, after that pan, I'll be leaving here with frame count 110.
144:58:02 England: Okay, Charlie; 110. (Pause)
[The complete Station 4 pan has been assembled by Dave Byrne. By starting the assembly with the down-Sun frame and ending with another, the effects of Charlie's change in position while taking the pan are minimized.]144:58:12 Duke: (Talking to the SCB) You dog, you![Charlie pulls the scoop out of the ground and gets the SCB off the handle. However, in the process of transferring the SCB to his right hand, he drops it. Fortunately, none of the sample bags fall out.]
144:58:14 Young: What are you talking about? Did you drop it, Charlie?
[Charlie moves downslope of the bag so he can grab it without having to get to his knees. This is a graphic illustration of the steep slope.]144:58:15 Duke: Yeah, but I got it. Get downslope here, and it's a piece of cake.
144:58:20 Young: Yeah, it is.
[As Charlie skips off-camera to the left, Fendell starts a clockwise pan.]Video Clip ( 3 min 16 sec 0.8 Mb RealVideo or 29 Mb MPEG )[Jones - "You didn't seem to have any trouble adapting to the hillside."]
[Duke - "That was tough. That was a tough stop. But, I mean, you just do it."]
[Jones - "There's a great deal of inventiveness here in getting things done."]
[Duke - "Yeah. Well, you know, it's simple physics, really. 'I'd better get downslope for this one.' Those kind of things."]
144:58:22 England: And we'd like EMU check before you take off.
144:58:23 Young: (Lost under Tony) I'm putting it under your seat. I don't think it's going to...(Stops to listen) Okay. I'm reading 3.85. I have no flags. I'm down to 68 percent on the O2. (Pause) Make that 63 percent. No, 68 was right. And I'm on...in there between Intermediate and Minimum cooling.
[Fendell zooms in on South Ray Crater and, although the resolution is poor compared to Hasselblad images such as 18245, we can make out the rim crest all the way around and see the inner walls on the south and west sides.]144:59:05 Duke: Okay. I'm at 70 percent, clear flags, 3.85, and I got just out of Medium - correction just out of Min. I got it, John.
144:59:23 Young: (To Houston) Okay. I think the flact [sic] that we didn't run across any white soil may be significant around here. (Pause)
144:59:38 Duke: Tony, what...How'd the metabolic rate look there?
144:59:45 England: Okay. Y'all look very good.
144:59:53 Duke: Okay. Thank you. Okay. And as we leave Cinco Crater, we bid a fond farewell.
145:00:06 England: Okay; and, John, we'll need a frame count from you.
145:00:08 Duke: Okay, Tony...(Stops to listen)
145:00:13 Young: Okay. My frame count is 76, magazine Charlie.
145:00:19 Duke: John, could you give me (16-mm) magazine Romeo?
145:00:22 Young: Yep.
[Fendell is panning slowly north along the South Ray ejecta blanket, stopping every half frame width so that people in the Backroom can take pictures of the video monitor.]145:00:24 Duke: Hey, Tony. I think on this next one we ought to stop away from any boulders down at 5, so we can get some Descartes.
145:00:40 England: Right, we're...
145:00:41 Young: Is that where you got Romeo from, Charlie?
145:00:42 Duke: Yeah. That's fine.
145:00:43 England: We agree that Station 5's a key station now. We have a pad vector to get you to the crater that you called out on the way up (at 143:58:59), but it's up to you on what you think is the best place to be sure of getting Descartes.
145:01:00 Young: We got ya (meaning he understands).
145:01:03 Duke: Okay. We could move 40 feet...(correcting himself) 50 meters downslope, and I think we'd have Descartes, but we'll look. Okay. Ready, John? (Pause)
[Fendell is now looking at Baby Ray Crater, still at maximum zoom.]145:01:17 Duke: (Scanning LMP-9) Okay; I've got the frame count. DAC's mag's R. Padded bags we're skipping. Okay; DAC, f/8, 250. Got to change that.
145:01:29 Young: Okay, going (LCRU) Mode switch to 1 (PM1/NB), Houston; and the TV CCW (counter-clockwise).
[TV off.]145:01:35 England: Okay. That 50 meters downslope you described, is that a blocky rim crater, or why do you think that is Descartes?
145:01:44 Duke: Because there's no blocks around it at all.
145:01:48 Young: It's just an old subdued crater.
145:01:51 Duke: It's got a few blocks around it. (Pause) Tony, I can see that one downslope that you want us to stop at for Station 5. It won't be any trouble getting there, but if you give us a vector, that'll be certain.
[As Charlie mentioned at 143:58:59 as they passed the crater on the way to Station 4, the crater was at a bearing and range of 354/3.4. Station 4 is at a bearing and range of 354/4.1.]145:02:09 England: Okay. The vector will be 352 (should be 354) heading and seven tenths (kilometer drive)
145:02:11 Duke: John, look in the (garbled) there. Do you see...(Stops to listen)
145:02:20 Young: Okay.
145:02:22 England: Does that look like the best bet to you? (Pause) What we're looking for...
145:02:28 Duke: That seems to be about it...(Stops to listen)
145:02:29 England: ...is a primary impact...(Stops to listen)
145:02:30 Young: Charlie. (Pause) (To Houston) Say again.
145:02:42 Duke: What they're looking for is a primary impact crater in Descartes.
145:02:43 England: What we're looking for is a primary impact at blocky rim crater.
145:02:49 Young: Understand.
145:02:52 Duke: Suppose we give you a primary impact with no block? (Pause) Wait a minute, John. I can't find this seatbelt. There we go.
145:03:10 England: And we don't want one without blocks. It'll almost have to be blocky. (Pause)
[Charlie is afraid that any blocky-rimmed crater will be showing South Ray blocks whereas the Backroom is hoping that John and Charlie will be able to find a blocky-rimmed crater that has brought up Stone Mountain bedrock (the Descartes formation), much like Spur Crater brought up bedrock on the flank of Mt. Hadley Delta at the Apollo 15 site.]
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