Apollo 12

192:15:39 Conrad: Houston, 12.

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192:16:45 Gibson: 12, go ahead.

192:16:49 Conrad: Roger, Houston. We've completed our little sweep - down there and we're ready for your question.

192:16:55 Gibson: Okay, Pete. We'll be with you in just a minute. [Long pause.]

192:17:15 Gibson: Okay, Pete. One question is, could you give a little more elaborate description of the patterned ground with the ridges and grooves; that is, were there several scales of the patterning and was there a difference in the bearing strength of the surface on the patterned ground?

192:17:39 Gordon: You're referring to the things that look like streaks and that we talked about that were in different directions, also, than the LM - so that they weren't effects of the LM exhaust plume, is that what you're talking about?

192:18:00 Gibson: Yes, you talked - you described some which were perpendicular to the dis - to the direction which you thought tile exhaust plume would normally give pattern ground.

192:18:11 Conrad: Yes. If I remember correctly, that was in the Surveyor crater, and I think that we noticed these radial streaks almost everywhere. Don't you agree, Al?

192:18:25 Bean: Yes. We'd see some and then we'd go through an area that wouldn't have any; then we'd see another area and then there would be an area that wouldn't have any, so we were seeing them frequently, you know; they weren't very isolated, but they were all over. The ones down in the Surveyor crater were from - looked to me like the North-Northeast, running Southwest, wouldn't you say, Pete? And then maybe the ones out in front of the LM, for example, they were North, running South and maybe Northwest running South. I can't remember now, but I'm sure it's on the voice tape. The size as I recall - Pete may recall them differently - It's hard to remember them, some of these things - They look to me like they were about maybe an eighth of an inch to a sixteenth of an inch wide, and they maybe were a - as you looked at them real close, they looked like they were about a sixteenth of an inch high or less and then, maybe then they were about three-eighths of an inch between little hills; something like that would be my guess. What do you think, Pete?

192:19:28 Conrad: Yes, I agree with that. You mentioned bearing strength. I think the bearing strength of the ground, generally speaking, in the Surveyor crater and up around as we approached it from the far side on our traverse and everything was probably some of the firmest ground we were on; the ground that we sank in the least. There was one place we got into, when we got out - way out - Was it Sharp crater, Al? - Where we felt that the ground was much more soft and powdery and we were, there-fore, not as good bearing strength.

192:20:08 Bean: Yes. I think it was sharp; maybe that's on the tape, too.

192:20:11 Conrad: And I can't - I can't say that I remember any radial patterning out there at Sharp [crater] to speak of.

192:20:20 Bean: I don't remember any either. One thing - we know we did that gold camera right at the very end, and I don't think I was able to get any of that patterned ground; I should have, but the time just ran out. Before I could get very many pictures, we came back in. I did take it with a 70-millimeter several times.

192:20:41 Gibson: Roger. Over what extent did that patterned ground occur, and can you relate it to anything that you've seen back here?

192:20:59 Conrad: Well, I don't think we paid that much attention to it, other than when we were aware of it; it was all around us like the Surveyor crater. Going down - I guess walking down to the Surveyor was when we noticed it in there, while we were resting. And to what extent it went, I really can't say; but, like Al said, we came across it in several places, and I would - I don't think -It's more an impression than anything else, but I really don't remember it out there by Sharp crater or anything, and that is where ground was sort of soft and maybe finer grained than we've been on. So that may be a very pertinent point, that the more firmer ground that we're on, the more we would see this radial or patterned streaking.

192:21:53 Bean: Hey, and that's something else I haven't thought of, Pete. Remember that firm ground also was the same ground we came up on when I said it looks this ground has got kind of little blobs in it; and it looks like what a nice, smooth, level dirt field would look like if it just had some very light rain on it. Remember when we looked at that?

192:22:xx Conrad: That's was...

192:22:13 Bean: You're right. That was when we were on firm ground, right there. That's a good point; I hadn't thought of that.

192:22:19 Bean: I do remember looking at that patterned to see where it went; and usually, if I was near it and looked out in the distance, it looked like it went in the direction of the grooves, as far as I could see out in that direction, you know, and be able to see any detail that fine. In other words, I never did look either left or right on those groove patterns where it did look to me like it went all the way out to the limit of vision to seeing them. I never saw any sort of contact along the transverse direction of the grooves either in Surveyor crater or in front of the LM or the couple of other places we happened to walk around. Yes, now that I mention it, we saw I guess at least three basic types of ground. The one that we were on most of the time that we discussed, like right outside the LM, we saw the kind with the grooves; we saw the kind with the little like raindrops on it, and we - of course, we got pictures of all the different kinds, and then we - we saw some more finely powdered ground like out around Sharp crater, and then we saw some more finely powdered like is down on the inside of the small craters and some - to some extent on the inside of the Surveyor crater. Those are all the different types of soils that I can recall.

192:23:39 Conrad: However, they all had the same color. Boy, there was, other than the fact that you're suddenly aware that you've sunk in further or you just have to be thinking about it or looking at it at the time, there was no distinguishing in colors or anything like that. Now, there might be a subtle enough distinction in colors that from a far distance; that's where rays out of these craters give you that pattern. But, when you're standing right up close to it, that was not at all apparent that there was anything different in color.

192:24:18 Bean: Yes, that color was so deceptive. I can recall now looking at all of the terra around the LM the first day we were out and making some comments - I don't recall what I said, probably more gray-brown or gray-white. Then, the second day I was out in the very same place, and I wasn't really aware of it at the time; I kept talking about it being light brown. All the rocks, I kept thinking, had a light tan coating; whereas, the first day I thought they had a light gray coating. My impression now is, and it could be completely wrong, but - is that I'm going to be anxious to see the rocks when we get home - If we picked up all the different kinds of rocks that we saw that had to do with texture and shape and anything else, we could see which wasn't much, believe me. I looked hard. But my impression is, we're going to crack those rocks open and when we do we're going to find - We should have done this on the lunar surface with a hammer -we're going to find that those things are dark gray basalts. Also, every time we came in the LM, both times, Pete's suit and my suit looked the same gray color. I never saw anything but that dark gray. I never saw any of the browns that I'd seen outside or anything like that.

192:25:23 Conrad: Yes, our suits looked we'd been wallowing around in graphite, a dull graphite.

192:25:28 Bean: That's right. It was about that thin, too, and fine, and it clung to everything.

192:25:35 Gibson: There were some points there where you talked about seeing large white boulders in the distance or on other occasions, seeing things which appeared white. Do you really think that was the the color white, or do you think it was the way in which the Sun was refracting off of those surfaces that you were looking at?

192:25:55 Bean: Well, we discussed that again when we got back up in orbit; and the fact that, at the high Sun angles, the ground looked white to us from orbit and everything, and I think it's purely a matter that the Sun is so bright that when it shines on those objects at a distance and you're very close to having the Sun directly behind you, that it gives the appearance - everything has the appearance of being chalk white. I think that's one of the most different things about the lunar surface, that I saw, from the Earth's surface was the fact that where the Sun is has such a great effect on the color. Whereas, you take on Earth you have some sort of rock laying on the ground, the Sun can move a long way and the rock still pretty much looks the same; and, when you pick it up and kind of shade it with your body or something on the ground, you can usually get a good index of the color. You do that on the Moon, and you just can't hardly see the rock. When it's in the Sun it just changes colors with the sunlight. That's one of the most phenomenal differences I can see.

192:27:04 Conrad: Yes. Now, Al mentioned a very good point. There's no doubt about it that the ground looked different the second day than the first due to the Sun angle getting higher- however, on the horizon, the horizon remained approximately the same, and again I think it's because of the greater distance and the fact that the angle between us and the Sun was still relatively small looking at a distance, and the rocks still looked white out there, chalk white. I'll bet if we stayed there and let the Sun move to 90 degrees, that what we saw in the distance would change in color.

192:27:48 Bean: Yes, I agree with Pete. Now, one interesting thing, when we were out at the Surveyor, that was sort of tan, my initial impression was that radiation or something had darkened the paint, but when you look at the chrome surface - the only surfaces I saw that didn't look this way were the barer surfaces, by the way. But you look at the chrome surfaces of, for example, that battery box, and it had changed almost the same color, that light tan. Now, maybe if we had looked at it that first day and it had been in sunlight, it wouldn't have looked like tan; it would have looked like gray, but it looked like tan - you'll be able to get this, of course, because we've got the cameras with us - but when I rubbed the box, it took off the light gray coloring; but it just didn't dust off. I'm pretty sure that we didn't put it on with our LM, because it wasn't just like dust that hangs around your house that's only been there a day or two. It was like dust that's collected on there for a long time and longer to have some effects on it, long enough so that it really becomes not a thick coating but a very cohesive coating. It was almost like a skin on there. You had to rub hard to get it off that battery box. When you did, there was a nice shiny chrome beneath it. It was kind of a strange thing, like a bunch of dust had blown on the box; and it had stood there long enough to really get hard.

192:29:11 Conrad: But I think there's going to be enough parts that have not been touched by either our gloves or by the bag that the camera is in, that you'll be able to get a good hack on that.

192:29:23 Gibson: Roger. I imagine also, we'll get...

192:29:25 Conrad: Yes. Like the TV mirror.

192:29:28 Gibson: Go ahead, Pete.

192:29:30 Conrad: Yes, the TV mirror has only my finger mark on it, and I'm sure that nothing else has touched any of the rest of that TV mirror, and it was covered with this fine dust.

192:29:43 Bean: Also, in the same place with the mirror, Pete, although our mock-up didn't look this way as I remember, there's a lot of electronics exposed in behind that mirror, that, of course, we never could possibly touch. It should have the same coating in there or something.

192:29:57 Conrad: The other most important thing is the Surveyor was equally brown all the way around it; and had we covered it coming in, I think we'd have seen a directional pattern on the Surveyor, so I don't think, as a matter of fact, the way that dust flew when we landed, I don't think any of it landed within 10 miles of where we landed. It just took off.

192:30:17 Bean: I kind of agree. And even if it did, it wasn't going to fall in the crater; just shoot right across it.

192:30:21 Conrad: Yes, and the Surveyor was lower than we were.

192:30:24 Bean: Hey, did - I just thought of an interesting possible point that somebody wants to do when they get with that camera - The geologists want to look at it when they get the camera before they give it to the scientists - is back in there behind that mirror where all the radiation could get in to - It couldn't get into as much as it could in, let's say, the top. The camera got radiation all day long, because it would get it the minute the Sun came up and it'd get it all the way around to sunset. But inside that little hole where the mirror rotates, there's going to be parts in there, easily calculable, that got just only a certain amount of Sun each individual day. Like, say, some parts would only get 10 per-cent of the Sun on the outside; some parts of the inside would get 50 percent, so if they're very careful with that mirrored surface in the back of the mirror and inside that little hollow place, they're liable to be able to get some index of how fast this stuff builds up and when it does.

192:31:21 Gibson: Roger. Were you able to notice any kind of vertical...

192:31:23 Conrad: They're going to have to be careful...

192:31:27 Gibson: Go ahead.

192:31:28 Bean: I think you are going to want to have something thought through on that before that camera goes whistling off in the distance. This is going to take a lot of fooling around with, before all that information would be lost.

192:31:42 Gibson: Yes, that's true, Al. We'll have to be careful how we handle that. Did you notice any vertical gradient in the color on the Surveyor, as you might expect, if it was dust?

192:32:01 Conrad: No, it was pretty well uniform all the way over it.

192:32:07 Bean: Pete brought out a point. It's strange, too. It was - all the way around; it all looked the same.

192:32:12 Conrad: You see, we approached from the opposite side than we landed, and that was our first impression coming up on the opposite side was that it was brown. It didn't look brown the day before in the shadow, either; it looked white. And, of course, it was out in the sunlight by the time we got to it on the second EVA.

192:32:37 Gibson: Okay, a question on the vesiculation of rocks. Did you really notice any or an appreciable amount of vesiculation in any of the rocks you saw?

192:32:48 Conrad: Not a one. That's what's funny. I guess Neil and Buzz brought some back, but we didn't see one rock anywhere with any of that type structure.

192:32:59 Bean: I agree with Pete. One time I reported I did, and then I looked at the rock when we finally picked it up, and it didn't look like it at all. It had a bunch of pits on it, but it didn't have any vesicules in it, and we were all doing something else, and so I never really went back and corrected myself; but I've got to agree with Pete. I never saw any vesicular material at all.

192:33:19 Conrad: I'm not convinced that we got too much different kind of rock material, to tell you the truth. Of course, I got fooled out there in the desert; and so anything that we saw that remotely resembled being different to our eye, we brought you a sample.

192:33:36 Bean: I don't think we - I think we got every - I think we got a sample of almost everything that was there. Everything that we saw that was different in texture, or the way it weathered, or where it was setting, or anything else that seemed unusual to us about the differences of rocks, we grabbed some of them; but, like Pete says, it's going to be interesting to see how many different things we did actually get. [Long pause.]

192:34:23 Gibson: Pete and Al, were you able to notice any - which appeared to be boulder tracks on Head crater or any of the other craters similar to the type of tracks you saw after you rolled that one rock down?

192:34:38 Conrad: None. None that - Well, let me say this. I was - Without walking down to the crater, I couldn't tell what kind of a track the rock made that I rolled down there to start with. However, I think we have enough Pan photos that you can stereo in the craters that we went up to that if there any boulder tracks, you're going to be able to see them.

192:35:09 Bean: Yes, I think that's the best point right there. We took enough so you're going to find them. Now, I don't remember seeing any myself, but I think - I also don't remember specifically looking for them. Usually, when you see them, if you see anything special like that, you'll remember it, but maybe there are some around and I didn't - Just even notice them.

192:35:29 Conrad: All right, let me ask a question down there - when we were in orbit, we passed a particular area, and I'll have to go back to the map and look, where there were three or four bright craters that had very, very dark gray material streaking down the sides of them, like landslides. Now, we were aware of many places by using the monocular, seeing landslide type or slides or slump in all the craters all around the whole Moon that we could see, but there were only these three or four craters that had very decided gray slumps or streaks or something. It almost gave you the impression that there had been a liquid spill or something. It was so different from anything else. Has anybody reported that, or have you seen them in your photographs from Earth before?

192:36:30 Gibson: We'll try and get you an answer to that, Pete.

192:36:41 Conrad: That boulder track business got me to thinking about that. Go ahead with your question.

192:36:45 Bean: Let me say something else, too, and I can't remember if I said it. You know where we talked with Al Chidester and the guys, before we went, about the main objectives of the geology wasn't to go out and grab a few rocks and take some pictures, but to try to understand the morphology and the stratigraphy and what-have-you of the vicinity you were in. Look around and try to use your head along these lines. Well, I'll tell you, there was less than 10 times I stood in spots, including in the LM both times we were back in, and said, "Okay now, Bean, what can you do in that - can you fill that square? Is it possible to look at there and try and determine where this came from, which is first, which is second and all that?" And except for deciding which craters looked newer than others, which we know from ground observations, I was not able to see any special little clues like we were, for example, over in Hawaii and we were when we were out at Meteor Crater and other places, that gave us that kind of clues. That whole area is just - has been acted on by these meteoroids or something else so that all these features that are normally neat clues to you on Earth are not available for observation. I didn't find any way to fill that - those two big squares, you know; I never was able, when walking up to a crater, to determine when the normal ground stopped and the ejects started except on the difference in slope or the fact that it got a little bit more powdery under my feet, and that's not a very good index. We never saw anything of a different color or a different amount of rocks or anything else, except the times that Pete and I kept kicking up that very light gray as opposed to the more dark cement-gray material. There's just no contrast to look at.

192:38:41 Conrad: I think even a trained geologist would have trouble doing a whole lot of field geology that way on the Moon. I think what you're going to have to do is pick your traverses like we did and just sort of select at a regular interval as you go along and then come back and analyze the stuff to find out differences. I've kind of got the idea that a lot of it is the same and the only difference being its relative age to one another by being blasted by a meteor coming in and getting thrown out al different times. Don't you think that, Al?

192:39:23 Bean: I think that. I think one of the things you're going to want to up, too, is you're going to want to up the number of core tubes so you can get down in these areas you are interested in and find out what's going on under there, because it's covered with this layer, and there just ain't no way to figure it out. I know, thinking back - like I say, before the EVA, during the EVA, and afterwards, we talked about it and thought about trying to get the big picture, trying to be more than rock collectors and picture takers; and, believe me, we worked at it, and I think from our training we were pretty doggoned good at getting that sort of thing in training, not just grabbing a few rocks, but trying to evaluate the things that we want to evaluate. But it just was difficult to do because the clues just aren't right laying there on the surface. It's got this big blanket of all-beat-up soil over every single thing. I think maybe you want to get a better trenching tool. Pete, the trenching tool we had was just that shovel and he could only go down about 8 inches without falling on his head. Now, if you don't want to get a lot of core tubes but you want to see what's going on maybe we need some sort of better trenching tool so a guy can lean over and trench down 6 or 8 inches or, at least as far as the ground is soft, and then take a look at what's underneath it.

192:40:47 Conrad: We were really hindered in the fact that we could not bend over. It wasn't as apparent in our training as it was up there because, in your training when you weigh 285 pounds there in the building, and you've got all the stuff on your back, it's fairly easy to sort of scrunch down or lean quite a bit. You can't do that up there on the Moon, and like Al just said, and I'm short and low to the ground to begin with, that somebody that's taller than I am is going to have a difficult time with the same length tools trenching as deep as I did. Because you just can't get over. And we've really - we got a whole bunch of ideas and we're going to, in the 5 days there in the MQF, we'll put all this down on paper on what we think we could do to pass on some suggestions to improve the tools that we have right now, to do a little better job.

192:41:45 Bean: Yes, I think those tools can really be worked over; they seemed pretty good before we left, but once we got up there and started working with them, in that one-sixth g, like Pete says, you can't always do the same things; you're leaning in a different way, and things are a little different. I think we thought about it enough and observed it enough that we can come back and give some pretty good suggestions for tool improvement and equipment improvement along those lines that'll help the next guys get more rocks, and better rocks, and faster, and trench deeper, and do more core tubes, or whatever else they want to do. Hey, tell them they can start fixing that doggoned hammer.

192:42:23 Gibson: Okay. Thanks for your comments.

192:42:25 Conrad: Yes. We concluded that everything is too delicate to start with; the extension handle was about wiped out by the time Al got done driving that double core tube.

192:42:38 Bean: Yes. Even though you're light up there, everything's light; we could still get something like a hammer swinging, or if you get moving, and want to stop, you could still put some pretty good loads on some equipment.

192:43:13 Gibson: Okay, Pete and Al. That's it for the questions thanks very much. Could you give us a reading off the O₂ pressure gage on the Repress pack?

192:43:34 Bean: Yes. One more thing, that we did - getting back to this crater morphology and all that business; when we looked at those craters, we tried to do that, too, because we could see bedrock, or what we thought was bedrock, on the outside, we said, "Great! We're going to look in those craters." This is what we said before we even got out. "We're going to look in those craters and we're going to see a deep contact between the regolith and the bedrock, and we're going down a little bit further and here's going to be something else; we really got it knocked." We looked in those craters and what it looks like is just like the surface except there is a few rocks that seem to be resting on the wall and resting in the bottom. Now, if you went down there and dusted away all that material, I don't know how much there is there, maybe you would find a contact between the regolith and the bedrock; now, you know, you really couldn't see it. Now, maybe you could infer it from the pictures we took and what we discussed. Usually, it was showing here and there, particularly on that very last crater. But that's going to take some work; it's just not like looking at a crater on Earth.

192:44:55 Conrad: I think the - the fact that it has this makes geology up there as difficult, if not more difficult, as it is on the Earth, because you have trees and grass and all kinds of things like that that hide a lot of the Earth's geology .So, I think you're in the same box up there. [Garble] What do you want? The Repress package is 850 psi.

192:45:16 Bean: Another thing that has been concerning me a little bit - you know we keep talking about going to all these neat places like Hyginus Rille and all that stuff, because we are going to stand on the slue right below the rille and we're going to look up on that big high side and right there is going to be the history of the Moon, sort of like the Grand Canyon gives us such a great one of the Earth. Well, I'll tell you, if the sides of that place are anything like the sides of craters, or the sides of the Surveyor, you're going to look up there and you're going to see a bunch of dust just like you see on the surface, unless - you know - I could be easily wrong, we haven't been there, but - but we just didn't see any places, no matter what the slope, that didn't have all this material all over it.

192:46:08 Gibson: Roger.

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192:47:09 Gibson: 12, Houston. I'm looking back at all the burns and result of the VC counter. It looks as though the thing's working pretty well from what we can determine. We've looked back at Midcourse 2, LOI-1, LOI-2, and the Lunar Orbit Plane Change, both of them, and TEI; and it looks as though it's - predicted and the crew readout are doing pretty well. They're in pretty close agreement.

192:47:37 Gordon: Okay, Ed. What you say - what you say is generally true, now and the reason I say that is because those burns - these things are being held up until about 20 seconds or so before burn time. I measured the PIPA bias exactly one time, and it came out to be 1.4 feet per second in 1 minute, which is really power; and there's no question about that. And the only other thing, the other indication I've got is that on the Delta-V test you- 586.8 in 10 seconds on the Delta-V test, you always come up with minus 18.1, which seems to be a little higher that we'd expect to see, although we're still perfectly within tolerance. I see nothing wrong with it. During the RCS burn, the burn took a little bit of time to do and to trim out; and, during that time, the PIPA bias or the bias or the four other bias in the EMS was actually almost as high as my ability to trim, so that's why you got such an erroneous reading on that. That had a little something to do with the separation from the booster at the TLI also, but I'll talk about that later.

192:49:04 Gibson: Yes. Those things still up there within tolerance, however, Dick.

192:49:10 Gordon: Oh, that's correct. Yes. I recognized that. I just want you to know that that's what we've got, and I guess that's just real world.

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192:50:44 Bean: Hey, one last comment, there, Houston. How about telling old Uel Clanton that we both thought we were in Kapoho, too, when we were on that Moon, and we gave him about the - about the same type of information that we gave him at Kapoho, as far as it was visible.

192:51:05 Gibson: Roger, Al; will do.

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192:53:28 Gibson: 12, Houston.

192:53:33 Conrad: Go ahead, Houston.

192:53:35 Gibson: Say, if it's possible for you to see out of the rendezvous window to get a good shot at the Moon, we'd like to get some more small-scale, high-latitude photographs, and this would be at your convenience. If you think you can do it, give us a call, and we'll give you some procedures.

192:53:57 Conrad: Okay. Now we just took some about 2 hours ago, some 250-millimeter of the Moon, which of course, are full frame. Would you care for some now and, what lens would you like?

192:54:15 Gibson: It sounds as though you pretty well outguessed us. The Hasselblad with the 250-millimeter lens, black-and-white film, 5.6, 1/250th and, of course, at infinity, and if you'd take two or three photos and repeat approximately at 30-minute intervals for 1 hour.

192:54:40 Conrad: Okay. We'll - Tell me the f-stop again. That's the only thing I didn't hear. Okay. We got it. I'm sorry.

192:54:48 Gibson: 5.6.

192:54:52 Conrad: Okay. [Long pause.]

192:55:47 Gibson: Al, Houston.

192:55:54 Bean: Go ahead, Ed.

192:56:00 Gibson: Apollo 12, Houston. Are you observing any variation in the antenna position at the present time?

192:56:09 Conrad: No. I've been sort of watching it, Ed. The only thing I've noticed this whole time is every once in a while the yaw will just wiggle one time, just a smidge, and that's the only thing I've seen. Otherwise, it's been steady as a rock.

192:56:34 Gibson: Okay. We just picked up a little variation in your signal strength down here.

192:56:40 Conrad: Okay, now wait a minute here, that just made a liar out of me, because it's just starting to do it up here. With the signal strength varying and it's doing it in yaw [garble] in yaw.

192:56:50 Gibson: Roger. We're just starting to pick that up down here. DSE, On, please.

192:56:58 Bean: DSE, On. Roger.

192:57:14 Conrad: Okay, now the Recorder is On and we're in Low. Do you want us to go to High Bit Rate?

192:57:20 Gibson: Affirmative. High Bit Rate.

193:02:03 Gibson: Apollo 12, Tape Recorder to Stop.

193:02:15 Conrad: Okay, that's done, Ed.

193:02:21 Gibson: Thank you, 12. It looks as though it's settled down. Let's just keep an eye on it. [Long pause.]

193:03:12 Gibson: 12, DSE to Forward.

193:03:27 Conrad: Yes, we got it.

193:05:49 Gordon: Houston, Apollo 12.

193:05:52 Gibson: 12, Houston. Go ahead.

193:05:56 Gordon: Roger. Let me give you the angles on the GDC at this time.

193:06:02 Gibson: Go ahead.

193:06:05 Gordon: Okay. Roll, 072.25; pitch is 352.4; yaw is 081.55.

193:06:31 Gibson: Roger, Dick. Copy 072.25, 352.4, 081.55. Thank you.

193:06:41 Gordon: Roger. I'd like to get the other one later or before we leave this attitude.

193:06:47 Gibson: Okay.

193:08:53 Conrad: Houston, 12.

193:08:55 Gibson: 12, go ahead.

193:08:59 Conrad: It looks like what the antenna's done now is driven to some position other that Optimum and it's just sitting there.

193:09:13 Gibson: Roger, Pete. [Long pause.]

193:09:38 Gibson: 12, would you go to Wide Beam width?

193:09:44 Conrad: Roger. Wide Beam width.

193:09:47 Gibson: Thank you.

193:11:21 Gibson: Apollo 12, DSE to Off.

193:11:33 Conrad: Roger. It's Off. [Long pause.]

193:12:31 Gibson: Apollo 12, is the antenna holding steady at the present time?

193:12:39 Conrad: As best as I can tell it is, Ed. It's moved a little bit from where it, was a little while ago, but it's not wobbling like it was doing the other day.

193:12:52 Gibson: Roger. [Long pause.]

193:13:07 Conrad: I take that back. It may be wobbling just a little teeny tiny bit. I can see just a very slight oscillation in signal strength and maybe - of course, our gage is not to [garble] for being so inclined - It looks like it might be oscillating a degree or so.

193:13:34 Gibson: Roger. Thank you.

193:13:44 Conrad: And that's normally in yaw.

193:13:51 Gibson: Roger. Yaw.

193:14:03 Conrad: The other day when we were in the LM and Dick was having that trouble, it was oscillating in both axes, pitch and yaw.

193:20:59 Gibson: 12, Houston.

193:21:05 Conrad: Go ahead, Ed.

193:21:08 Gibson: For your next P23 at 195, we have another calibration star which I think will work out a little bit better for you when you're ready to copy.

193:21:20 Conrad: Go ahead.

193:21:24 Gibson: That's at star 24, Gienah, and the attitude is roll, 092; pitch, 329; yaw, 0. And that should give you a pretty small angle difference between the next attitude you'll be going to.

193:21:46 Conrad: Okay, thank you. Appreciate it.

193:21:51 Gordon: This ought to be a very interesting one, Ed, because I noticed on the other series - The first series of P23 that Gienah was pretty dim in the normal optics mode, but I'll be interested to see if I can see the star through the landmark line of sight and I'd like to try it. It sounds good to me.

193:22:13 Gibson: Roger, Dick.

193:38:51 Gibson: Apollo 12, Houston. Would you put the DSE at Forward, please? [Long pause.]

193:39:36 Gibson: 12, could we have the Track mode to Narrow? [Pause.]

193:39:53 Gordon: You got it, Ed.

193:39:55 Gibson: Roger.

193:40:46 Gordon: Man, is this chocolate pudding and butterscotch pudding ever good. You ought to try some.

193:40:55 Gibson: Roger, Dick. I'd like to trade you.

193:41:02 Gordon: Not yet, Ed; not yet. Two more days and you can.

193:41:33 Gibson: Apollo 12, Houston. Could we have secondary electronics?

193:41:38 Gordon: Secondary electronics coming at you.

193:44:44 Gibson: Apollo 12, Houston. Would you give us secondary transponder and pause at the center position?

193:44:52 Gordon: Roger.

193:48:02 Gibson: Apollo 12, Houston. Could you give us your onboard readouts of the High Gain antenna angles, pitch and yaw?

193:48:12 Gordon: Roger. Pitch is about a minus 20 and yaw is about 190.

193:48:28 Gibson: Roger. We copy. [Long pause.]

193:48:54 Gibson: Apollo 12, Houston. Would you select Wide Beam width, and then go to Manual, and select pitch, 60; yaw, 240? That's a pitch of minus 60.

193:56:02 Gibson: Apollo 12, Houston. Would you give us Auto Reacq - Auto Reacq?

193:56:23 Gordon: Okay. You got it, Houston.

193:56:25 Gibson: Roger. Thank you. We apparently dropped off there when you went to Mamual and that was pitch, minus 60; yaw, 240.

193:56:35 Gordon: That's correct. [Long pause.]

193:57:17 Gibson: Apollo 12, Houston. Would you give us the pitch and yaw readings on the High Gain antenna?

193:57:26 Gordon: Roger. it looks like minus about 22 and 1 - I guess about 190.

193:57:40 Gibson: Roger, 12. And also, if you would, the GDC angles.

193:57:48 Gordon: Okay. Stand by. I'm going to work on those at [garble] couples.

193:57:52 Gibson: Roger.

193:58:35 Gordon: Okay, Ed. Here's the best I could get here for you: roll is 093.1, pitch is 339.25, yaw is 086.4.

193:58:57 Gibson: Roger. 093.1, 339.25, and 086.4.

194:03:40 Gibson: Apollo 12, Houston.

194:03:46 Conrad: Go ahead.

194:03:48 Gibson: Okay. We're finished up with the [garble] test on the S-band, and we'd like to go to Low Bit Rate. The S-band Aux to Off and Tape Recorder, Forward, to Off, and we will be staying in the Wide Beam width.

194:04:21 Conrad: And you want us to stay on the secondary transponder?

194:04:27 Gibson: That's affirmative.

194:04:32 Conrad: Okay.

194:04:33 Gordon: What's the test look like, Ed?

194:04:37 Gibson: Stand by, and we'll get a summary of that for you. And, Dick, before you go over to the P23's, you want them - They want to manually maneuver away from gimbal lock.

194:04:56 Gordon: Okay. I got a whole hour before that P23. Is there anything you want us to do, or any particular attitude to be in?

194:05:10 Gibson: Stand by.

194:05:11 Gordon: If not, we'll look at the Earth for a while.

194:05:42 Gibson: Dick, at this time, you can go on over and do the P23's; the angles we gave you are still good. And then at - When you finish up with that, you can go back to PTC...

194:05:57 Gordon: Okay. You want us to do P23's; go ahead and do them an hour early, is that correct?

194:06:01 Gibson: That's correct.

194:06:04 Gordon: Okay, fine. Here we go.

194:08:13 Gordon: Houston, 12.

194:08:15 Gibson: 12, Houston. Go ahead.

194:08:19 Gordon: Roger. Here is the inner vector I have in there for Venus at this particular title. Okay? Knowing you're an hour early.

194:08:33 Gibson: Stand by.

194:08:43 Gibson: That's affirm, Dick. It's good.

194:08:47 Gordon: Okay. Thank you.

194:19:53 Gordon: Houston, Apollo 12.

194:19:56 Gibson: Go, 12.

194:20:00 Gordon: Roger, I want to make sure you're getting all this.

194:20:08 Gibson: Dick, we're watching it all.

194:20:16 Gordon: You were so quiet, I wasn't sure you were getting it.

194:20:21 Gibson: Watching some good working action.

194:28:49 Gordon: On that last lock, I think I took it past your horizon mark. [Garble] is a little bit too far, but I'll take it anyway.

194:28:49 Gibson: 12, say again. [Long pause.]

194:29:05 Gordon: I think that last hack, Don, was just a little bit into the Earth too far. It won't be on the horizon; that's okay.

194:29:10 Gibson: Roger.

194:43:37 Gordon: Houston, Apollo 12.

194:43:39 Lind: Go, 12.

194:43:43 Gordon: Guess what! I don't have a star. [Pause.]

194:43:55 Lind: Apollo 12, say again, please.

194:44:00 Gordon: I said I don't have a star. [Long pause.]

194:44:34 Lind: Dick, you're going to have to try that once again. We're breaking up in communications, and we don't read you down here.

194:44:41 Gordon: Roger, how do you hear me?

194:44:44 Lind: Still breaking up, but probably readable. Try it.

194:44:49 Gordon: Okay, I do not have a star for star number 56. There is no 6N star 204.

194:45:02 Lind: Roger.

194:45:08 Gordon: Tell the boys in the backroom I don't have a star for this particular one in the field of view. I can't see it.

194:45:14 Lind: Roger; we'll work on it.

194:45:15 Lind: Dick, part of that test, we wanted to make sure whether or not you could not see the star because of light shafting. Was that the case?

194:46:27 Gordon: Well, it's light out there. I don't necessarily see any light shafting, but I sure can't see the star in the field of view.

194:46:33 Lind: Roger. Then...

194:46:34 Gordon: I don't know why, or what the reason for it is.

194:46:38 Lind: Okay, the nav star then is star 24 and the Earth's far horizon.

194:46:48 Gordon: Okay.

194:52:29 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston.

194:52:33 Gordon: Go ahead.

194:52:34 Lind: We'd like you to dump the waste water down to zero before you go into the PTC, then we won't have to disturb that later, if you would for us.

194:52:53 Gordon: Okay stand by, I want to get this Bias - [garble] in Bias yet.

194:52:56 Lind: Sure, anytime before you set up PTC.

194:54:46 Gordon: Don, this is Dick again. Where do you want to take the waste water down to before PTC?

194:54:52 Lind: Take it clear down to zero, then you'll have an undisturbed night's sleep.

194:55:01 Gordon: Okay, you're not worried about that bladder all the way down to zero, huh?

194:55:05 Lind: Roger.

194:55:10 Gordon: Okay. [Long pause.]

194:55:45 Gordon: Houston, 12.

194:55:47 Lind: Go.

194:55:50 Gordon: Don, I was curious on that 6N when they use star 204. How close is that to the Sun?

194:56:13 Lind: We're looking it up for you, Dick. Dick, that was 20 degrees; 20. [Pause.]

194:56:33 Gordon: It seems like I could have - should have been able to see it, then, huh?

194:56:53 Lind: It's in that area where it's kind of marginal, Dick, and we were kind of interested whether you could or could not see it.

194:57:01 Gordon: Okay, well, I sure looked all over in there and I couldn't see any star in the field of view.

194:57:05 Lind: Roger. [Long pause.]

194:57:13 Gordon: In fact, it surprised me; I thought I was going blind.

194:57:17 Lind: Maybe that star didn't get turned on today.

194:57:23 Gordon: Don, I was going to accuse you of the wrong [garble] vectors and all kinds of things like that, but I thought I better not.

195:00:18 Gordon: Don, do you want to take an E-memory dump at this time?

195:00:25 Lind: Give us just 1 minute to set up, Dick.

195:00:29 Gordon: Okay.

195:00:40 Gordon: Don, for the navigation expert's information, this last - this last set of stars - the airglow 4 is starting to - to show up, and I'm starting to use the top part of the airglow for a visible horizon.

195:00:55 Lind: Roger, Dick.

195:00:59 Gordon: That first set it was not the ease, or at least I couldn't tell that there was any airglow there anywhere [garble] just used the high part of the horizon.

195:01:12 Lind: Dick, we show you down to zero on waste water now.

195:03:35 Lind: Apollo 12, we're ready for the E-Mod dump.

195:03:40 Gordon: Okay. It's coming at you.

195:03:42 Lind: Roger. Also, Dick, how well could you see Venus, the first star you did, and the fifth star, 163? Were those clearly visible?

195:03:53 Gordon: That's affirmative. No problem with the stars at all. Venus - Venus, of course, looked like about four of them put together.

195:04:02 Lind: Roger. Very good. Thank you...

195:04:03 Gordon: Actually, it's - It's a very easy planet to use for the simple reason that you can take the horizon and strip the image of Venus so that you get a pretty good mark off of it.

195:04:22 Lind: Very good.

195:04:24 Gordon: And the rest - the rest of them, the stars are so dim that you really can't do that. All you can do is get the star down to the horizon, but with Venus, you can actually split the planet with the horizon.

195:04:37 Lind: Roger. Copy.

195:05:51 Gordon: Houston, let me know when you're through with that E-memory dump. I want to take a look at 83 and see what I did to my Auto state vector.

195:06:00 Lind: Roger. We're through with the E-Mod dump now, and when you look at 83, would you also look at Noun 34, too, so we can check that one? Okay. Verb 83, Noun 54.

195:06:11 Gordon: Want it now? Okay.

195:06:29 Gordon: Okay. Noun 54 is 6.24 miles and zero velocity.

195:06:33 Lind: Roger.

195:06:38 Gordon: How does it look down there?

195:06:41 Lind: Looks fine.

195:06:45 Gordon: I'll do a P37 and see what it looks like.

195:06:49 Lind: Roger.

195:10:23 Lind: Apollo 12, for your information, at the end of the second quarter, Michigan leads Ohio State 21 to 12.

195:10:33 Conrad: Okay. Startling, huh?

195:10:40 Lind: There's still a little more to go.

195:10:42 Gordon: Hey, Don, ask them if they...

195:10:45 Lind: Go ahead.

195:10:46 Gordon: Okay, ask FAO if he knows a secret hiding place for P30 PAD's in the spacecraft. [Long pause.]

195:11:11 Lind: We're not sure you're cleared for that information.

195:11:17 Gordon: Well, I'd sure like to be because we ran out of them 2 days ago.

195:11:22 Lind: He doesn't know of any other place - any special place to look. We'll - We'll ask around in the back room, but first quick guess is he doesn't know.

195:11:36 Gordon: Well, I don't think there are any. So we've been manufacturing them for 2 days.

195:11:43 Lind: Roger. We'll research it some more.

195:11:44 Gordon: Some of these guys didn't have anything to do anyhow. [Long pause.]

195:12:21 Lind: We'll try to keep down the number of midcourse's so you won't need any more.

195:12:28 Gordon: That 's good; that's good.

195:20:48 Lind: Dick, would you confirm that you terminated the water dump?

195:20:54 Gordon: That's affirmative. We terminated when you hollered at us.

195:20:57 Lind: Fine. Thank you.

195:20:59 Gordon: Why, doesn't it look like it?

195:21:01 Lind: We can't tell for several hours, and they were worried.

195:21:07 Gordon: Okay. I'll check again, but I know we did.

195:21:10 Lind: No sweat, if you did it.

195:21:14 Gordon: Then rest assured; it's terminated.

195:21:17 Lind: Roger. Thank you.

195:21:45 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston. According to all our information down here, the only P30 PAD's you have are in that CMS - CSM update book, and there should be only 12 of them counting both sides of the pages.

195:22:02 Gordon: Yes. Okay. That's fine. We ran out; that's all. All right. We just thought maybe there were more around here some place else.

195:22:09 Lind: Not to our knowledge.

195:22:11 Gordon: We've already scrounged a couple P30 PAD's out of some contingency books, so when they think of those, why, forget passing it up, because we allready got them.

195:22:21 Lind: Roger. [Long pause.]

195:22:53 Lind: Dick, we rechecked your P37 solution down here in our computers, and it agrees exactly.

195:23:08 Gordon: Very good.

195:53:16 Gordon: Houston, Apollo 12.

195:53:21 Lind: 12.

195:53:27 Gordon: Don, if you think we're stable enough and it looks like we're under control down there, we're going to go ahead and start PTC.

195:53:38 Lind: We suggest you let your rates damp out a little bit more.

195:53:45 Gordon: That's a suggestion I'll gladly follow.

195:53:48 Lind: Roger.

195:53:52 Gordon: I guess the reason they're there, is we're still moving around a bit. Everybody's cleaning up and shaving. We're through dumping water and everything else overboard so we probably can try and get it started. Maybe we better remain a little more calm inside here.

195:54:06 Lind: Roger.

196:01:51 Lind: Apollo 12.

196:01:56 Gordon: Go.

196:01:57 Lind: Roger. The rates look okay to start up on PTC. We'd like you to turn off the High Gain, - turn the Power, Off; and start with Omni Bravo as you start the PTC.

196:02:12 Gordon: Okay. High Gain Power, Off; and Omni Bravo for PTC.

196:02:16 Lind: That's affirmative.

196:02:20 Gordon: And we're on Omni Bravo.

196:02:21 Lind: Thank you.

196:22:08 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston.

196:22:32 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston.

196:22:45 Bean: Go ahead, Houston; Apollo 12.

196:22:47 Lind: Roger. We suspect that after the evaporator temperature is stabilized here in your PTC maneuver, the temperature in the cabin may get a little warm for you, so we want you to evaluate what that feels like before you get ready to settle down for the night, and we may either have to adjust the mixing ratio colder or go back to Auto, at your choice.

196:23:12 Bean: Okay. Last night it was fairly cold PTC, so I feel we're just going to - if it gets too warm this way, when we finally get in the proper attitude, well, I guess we'll just have to turn it down a smidgeon.

196:23:24 Lind: Roger. It'll probably take about another hour to...

196:23:26 Bean: It's got to be somewhere between...

196:23:29 Lind: It'll take about another hour probably to stabilize.

196:23:30 Bean: Okay. I just - Okay.

196:33:05 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston.

196:33:11 Lind: Go.

196:33:12 Lind: Pete, some time this evening, if you've got time, we've got some geology questions down here that we would like to send up to you. And, when you want to discuss them, we'll - We'll pipe them up to you, if that's all right with you.

196:33:30 Conrad: Are these different from the geology questions we got about 3 or 4 hours ago? We're glad to do it.

196:33:36 Lind: That is affirmative. It's really a continuation of the same kind of material, but we've got eight specific questions.

196:33:46 Conrad: Okay. Why don't we start in about - about l0 minutes? We're cleaning up from a meal and we'll be ready to go in 10 minutes.

196:33:55 Lind: Fine, or any time is fine. Thank you.

196:44:30 Conrad: Hello, Houston; Apollo 12.

196:44:32 Lind: Go, 12.

196:44:37 Conrad: Roger. We're ready for your questions.

196:44:40 Lind: Okay. Let's start with two quick ones on the Surveyor work. The first one is, are you bringing back any glass from the Surveyor thermal switch plate?

196:44:51 Conrad: No. The glass apparently, which we didn't know, was bonded onto metal; and then, the metal, in turn, was bonded onto the little standoff things that held it off the top of the box. We tried to get it, and everybody had told us back there that it was going to have separated from its bonding, and it had not. It was in great shape. It was bonded to the metal just perfect. We beat on it, smashed, and bent, but all we did was break it into little teeny, tiny pieces. Shattered it actually is what happened, and it just remained fastened, very tenaciously to the metal it was bonded to. That was that. We just couldn't get it.

196:45:41 Lind: Roger. Whoever made that bonding material will appreciate that testimonial. Okay, on the second one, did you get any soil samples from the Surveyor trenching area other than the material that may be with the scoop itself?

196:46:00 Conrad: The scoop itself has some material left in it, I believe, or - it'll be in that bag, and that'll be it.

196:46:09 Lind: Okay. Roger. Next question now goes to the geology area, and the question's - Well, I'll start out here. Did you ever climb one of those mounds, and what more description can you give us of the mounds, and particularly was there any apparent orientation or elongation to the mounds? Also, anything about vent holes?

196:46:33 Conrad: Okay. Now, the mounds weren't that big that you would climb one. You could just stand and look at it. There were two of them. One was bigger than the other; and, no, they didn't have any vent holes. Their orientation - both of them, appeared to be in an east-west direction. Sort of - Let's say you had a strip that was about a foot wide, that you just bent it and made a little triangular thing out of it. The mounds looked something like that, and we sampled all around one mound. Brought back stuff from it -material; excuse me, Uel Clanton. That's about all I can say for them. They didn't [garble] I guess you're - I think you're hunting around for any-thing volcanic in nature, and they didn't appear to, to us anyhow. They appeared more like a big glob of something that had been pitched into that particular area, either by the craters that were formed nearby or something else further away. We looked around for all evidences of vent holes or anything coming out of it that might be scattered around, you know. Let's say, rocks from it itself or some ejected pyroclastics around on the ground might be near it. We couldn't find any of those either. I was kind of wondering at the time why you didn't ask us to give a core tube through it, but you didn't.

196:48:21 Lind: Roger. Thanks. Next, if there's no more in that one, the next one is whether or not you noticed any preferential distribution of the glass beads and the glassy material?

196:48:42 Conrad: Generally speaking, it was all over the place in the bottom of even the smallest little craters that we came across. But we found it wherever we went, and no more in one place than in another. I think that we have three or four samples of glass that looked the same that were taken from different places, and they should be documented. One of them isn't, but I remember where we got it.

196:49:20 Lind: Roger. I'm not sure I understand. Did you mean that they - the glass beads were in the bottoms of all craters or that they were on the tops of the level surfaces as well as in the bottoms of the craters?

196:49:33 Bean: That's right. When we walked around on the level surface, if you just look down and look even halfway, you'd find beads here and there. Now, you didn't find a lot of big ones. You'd run across big ones every once and a while, big ones being about a quarter to three-eighths of an inch in size. If we came upon those, we would see them, but generally there were a lot of little ones around. Now, if you looked down into the small craters, I'm thinking of the craters 3 or 4 foot in diameter, maybe a foot deep, it didn't look like they were made with very big objects; you would usually find glass beads at the bottom and you would usually find glass-covered rocks, and that was surprising to us because we had always imagined that these beads just came from very - from the more - the larger craters, up to 8 or 9 or 10 feet, but this didn't seem to be the case.

196:49:51 Conrad: Also, if I remember, we have a rock which is some 2 inches or so in size that is spattered with glass, and we brought it back for that reason. They are not beads; it's just a big splatter...

196:50:48 Lind: Apollo, break, break. We have lost antenna for a moment.

196:51:00 Lind: Apollo, break, break. We have lost Comm for a moment.

196:51:20 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston. Do you read us?

196:51:46 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston. Do you read?

196:51:53 Bean: Roger. We apparently lost your antenna for a while. We are ready to go again.

196:51:57 Lind: Roger. We switch antennas there. Al, the last thing we heard you saying was that in some of the small craters there were glass-covered rocks. Would you repeat anything after that?

196:52:11 Bean: Roger. Did you hear Pete's description?

196:52:13 Lind: Negative.

196:52:17 Bean: Okay. Right. I was saying that even the craters up to as little as 3 or 4 feet in diameter, 1 foot deep, the ones that didn't look to me like they were made by either very heavy particles, or very fast particles, you could usually look around in the bottom of them and see glass-covered small rocks, in a number of them. We took some pictures and documented them real well, and then I'll let Pete - let me say the rest. Also, one time when we were walking around outside a big crater, we saw a rock about 3 inches in diameter, I guess, somewhere around in that neighborhood; and it was almost completely covered with this glass. And the glass looks the same as the glass you see in close-up stereo pictures that Nell brought back, that he took pictures of, down in small craters. So, this will be a nice sample for somebody to look over.

196:53:14 Lind: Very good. Okay. Next time - next question is - Can you give us some more detail on the material that appeared to be melted in the bottom of bench crater? Did this just cover the central peak or did it appear more extensively located - spread around down there?

196:53:34 Conrad: It appeared to be - to look - a little bit lava-like in nature but I don't mean to imply that I thought the crater was volcanic in origin. It looked more to me like we were seeing the effects of some high-speed impact and - causing some melting of material down there. I wish that we could have gone down in that crater and gotten a sample, but it was too steep and too rugged for us to attempt it, and, therefore, we did take some partial Pan stereo of the whole crater for you and we tried to get material from the top but nothing from the top resembled the material in the bottom.

196:54:27 Bean: I think the reason Pete said that to begin with is our experience over in Hawaii in some of those chains of craters or those lines of - I can't think of the exact word now - but where the lava comes out in long cracks, zones of weakness; it just sort of bubbles out and spatters one on top itself and ends up making sort of knobby-looking mounds of basalt. Well, from the top of the crater, all this stuff looked like knobby little mounds that were sort of like [garble] zones - the material you usually see around [garble] zones and that's why he is trying to stay - neither of us think of it as a volcanic material, but it had that sort of melted knobby effect. We got a lot of pictures of it, though.

196:55:16 Lind: Roger. On the Northwest side of Head crater, you talked about a rock that you kicked over, and you mentioned that the bottom was different from the top and we are not sure just in what way it was different. Remember that one?

196:55:36 Conrad: Well, yes - I remember it and it wasn't different in - I think maybe - I should maybe have clarified it then because it wasn't that big a deal - I guess it was the first time that when we kicked over a rock, it was two different colors, you know. Before you'd kick over a rock and it looks just like the top is the bottom. This one, it looked a little bit lighter gray and the reason was after I thought about it, was because we were marching around in that same area where we noticed that there were two different types of soil. The soil that was the topsoil for just a thin layer on the top of an eighth of an inch or something, and then below that was the thin gray layer and that - what was causing the rock to appear white, in this case, instead of gray like the top was the fact that it had been in this light soil down beneath the surface. So, I don't think it's a big thing.

196:56:29 Lind: Roger. Let me give you the last two questions, so you can cover them together. The first one is, are there any special or unusual features that you remember, thinking back on it now, that you didn't have time to describe? And the other thing is, can you sort of recap the traverse along each leg and recall what you think was the significant feature that you saw at each of the stations where you stopped?

196:57:08 Conrad: Wait 1 while we discuss it a second.

196:57:10 Lind: Sure. [Long pause.]

196:57:32 Conrad: I think we pretty well talked about everything that we saw that attracted our attention. We can't think of anything right now that we saw that we didn't mention to you sometime or another, either during the EVA's or after. Al's only comment, which he already said he talked about this morning, was the fact that the color did change with the Sun angle between the first day and the second day. As far as the traverse goes, I guess that the most significant thing - There was nothing unusual at Head crater other than the - the fact that we found that - I guess, that Head crater was where we first saw the difference in soil below the ground and above the ground. The next most significant thing I think, is as we did go over to Sharp crater, - Yes - no, no, Head crater is not where we saw it; no, the crater - What was the name of the crater that we saw the material we just discussed? Was it - That was Bench crater, right?

196:59:07 Lind: Say again on that, 12.

196:59:11 Conrad: Wasn't the name of the crater - our second stop on the traverse was bench crater, is that correct?

196:59:16 Lind: That's right.

196:59:20 Conrad: Okay. The - I'd get our books out except they're so dirty with dust, and we've had a heck of a time getting rid of the dust in the Command Module, I don't want to do that.

196:59:31 Lind: No, don't do that.

196:59:34 Conrad: The - We discussed the difference in texture of the rocks at the bottom of that crater, I guess the next most significant thing was that somewhere between Bench crater and Sharp crater, we obviously ran over what must be a contact in that the ground very definitely changed to a softer, finer dust. We sank in deeper out there not only right at Sharp crater but leading up to it. Now, we both found it very difficult to ever walk slowly. We always went at a lope where ever we went; that just seemed the natural way to go. So, Al sort of spotted it first watching me run because he was behind and he could tell that - I guess I was kicking up more dust. Is that right, Al?

197:00:27 Bean: Yes. That's right. It was obvious that Pete had started running on a different kind of ground, or dragging his feet, one. It turned out it was different kind of ground.

197:00:35 Conrad: And I guess that's the most significant thing over there on that part of the traverse. From there, we're not sure that we ever did get to Halo crater. There turned out, now I'm going to I have to look at our photographs and I'm going to have to look at the maps again and figure out exactly where halo crater was because there were about five little craters all of them which could have been Halo crater, all together; and it wasn't apparent in looking at the little map that we had which was colored at that spot, whether there were five craters or two craters or what. And I had a very difficult time locating it. We suspect that we were not in Halo crater but if we weren't, we were awful darn close to it. I guess the next significant thing was the fact that from Halo crater, or coming up to Halo crater, we really got on a third type ground, which was ground that we discussed around the Surveyor crater which seemed to be the firmest, especially down in the crater. It seemed to be the most firm ground that we were on. It still had dust; we still sank in, but we sank in the least in the Surveyor crater, both going down to the Surveyor from the one side and going up towards the LM through that blocky crater on the other side, nearest the LM. The blocky crater was also an interesting feature and that may be something that we - I think we did discuss, though, as we stood there - was the fact that we felt that the Surveyor crater was an old crater, as if it had been impacted...

197:02:20 Lind: Hold up for just a second. We're going to have to switch antennas, and we may lose you for a second.

197:02:30 Conrad: Okay.

197:03:22 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston. We've got a good signal. Go ahead.

197:03:27 Conrad: Okay. I guess we discussed it that we felt the Surveyor crater must have been impacted very early and had bedrock, and that this bedrock had weathered down to where the crater was very smooth and had weathered much there; and along came another one and made this small blocky crater in tile side of it which must had been - which indicated to me that bedrock was not too far below the surface right where we were at the Surveyor crater. And, of course, we have samples of that. Something that Al and I just were talking about - he wanted me to mention that the Surveyor, except for tile fact that it had changed color, looked in very good shape. This is true. But there's something that I noticed, using the cutters. Supposedly, the tubes that we used in practice were exactly the same metal and aluminium that the Surveyor was made out of. And if this is the case, something very definitely happened to the metal, like it crystallized, because it was much easier to cut the Surveyor tubes except the one tube which I flat couldn't cut; and I think that they were off on their dimension on that tube. It must have been a much stronger tube than they'd indicated, much thicker tube, thicker walled tube. But the wire bundles that we cut, too, also had the appearance of being very brittle. They cut very, very easily. I was - Yes; the coating flaked off the insulation. And there was one wire bundle that had a cloth insulation on it which was not on our mock-up, and there was a - The other wire bundle which was on the mock-up wasn't quite the configuration that it was in the mock-up. But these wire bundles seemed to cut quite easily, also. And I don't think it's because I was juiced up, I think there was very definite crystallization or something there. You'll get to see that with the stuff we bring back.

197:05:41 Lind: Very good.

197:05:43 Conrad: I guess the last most significant thing is that Al and I and Dick also, having watched our training, were impressed with the fact that we managed to get as far out as we did. And that it was as easy going in that kind of country as it turned out to be. The distance that we covered, I guess we covered a little over a mile.

197:06:05 Bean: You put that on Earth in your equipment - if you had lunar-weight equipment on Earth, you could never make that traverse in that time. You would die before you got to the end, and we weren't even sweating; we were kind of hopping around out there doing the job. The only thing that kept us from moving faster was there was so much to see. Also, the only thing that kept us from studying more details at each site was the fact that we had to keep pressing on. So what's going to happen when we get back, we're not going to know all the details of each site because we just weren't able to stay there long enough, as long as we'd like to on any site. We could have spent that whole time in any of those craters, trenched around them and looked at - collected different size rock - type rocks around it, and tried to go back and forth on the - check the blanket and see if we could discover any difference in texture and all that sort of thing. But the time Just wasn't available. It was one of those things of how much you want to cover in the time you've got to do it.

197:07:00 Conrad: Yes, what Al's saying is we did Big Bend, Hawaii, Meteor Crater, and New Mexico all in one 2-hour trip around there. That's about what it amounted to.

197:07:11 Lind: Yes. You did a great job in it, too. Hey, listen. When you looked into the craters, did you notice any boulder tracks that indicated there'd been many rocks rolled down besides the ones you rolled down or accumulations of boulders at the bottom of these steep slopes?

197:07:31 Conrad: No, not any particular distribution. When there were rocks in the bottom, it was in these blocky craters where it looked like the material had been there. [Pause.]

197:07:48 Lind: Roger.

197:07:50 Conrad: Now, the dust, as such, and I'm sorry; I just didn't observe - I wasn't really standing in a position to observe any track that the one rock made that I rolled down. The other rock that I threw down there was so small that it didn't go very far anyhow. Now, dust flew and the rocks both bounded and rolled depending on how far along it was going down the side of the crater. But it was not obvious to me that it was making any tracks. Now, had you stood back and looked at it from a different Sun angle, I feel that maybe you would for a while. Just like, it was very obvious when we looked out our window where we had been walking around. We could see for great distances where our footsteps went.

197:08:37 Lind: The seismologists are trying to get some feeling for whether or not you thought there was a lot of rock rolling that might be causing the signals that they see.

197:08:50 Conrad: If there was, it was not evident to us. Most of the rocks that we saw on the sides of craters all had dust around the bottom of them and they - it didn't look like they had moved for a long, long period of time and most of them looked like they were partially buried the majority of them looked that way.

197:09:13 Bean: That's right. Not only that, we didn't see any that looked like they thought they were going to roll down in the near future, either.

197:09:19 Lind: Roger. Hey, listen. When you pulled out the core tube, did the holes collapse or did they stay there?

197:09:31 Conrad: That's a good question. We didn't really look down it, did we, Al?

197:09:37 Bean: I didn't say that right; I was talking to Pete.

197:09:40 Bean: The tubes themselves stayed pretty doggoned uncollapsed except for the top 1 or 2 inches. The minute you draw out the core tube, the top 1 inch, let's say not 2 - 1 inch or so would kind of crumble off and some parts would fall down in, but the sides were still relatively vertical. It's the same thing that happened in the trenches. When Pete would dig the trenches, the sides would be almost 90 degrees, except every time you'd tap the sides, let's say accidentally with his shovel, then that part would get knocked off, but the part that would remain, would still remain 90 degrees. As long as you didn't touch it, it seemed to be happy right there at 90 degrees.

197:10:19 Conrad: That reminds me of another thing. That pulsed my memory. Again, this is an impression, but it seemed to me that there were angles greater than 90 degrees in the trenches, implying layering; and, although there wasn't any difference in color, it seems to me that that would sort of imply that there was some layering there and maybe this material is built up over a different time frames. If that's really true, you'll see that in the photographs.

197:10:54 Lind: Very good. Hey, listen, when you deployed the Solar Wind Experiment, did that staff go down into the ground far enough to let the bottom of the foil contact the surface? And when you rolled it back up, did all of the foil have difficulty in rolling up or is some of the top section of that roll up smoothly? Do you remember?

197:11:19 Bean: Yes. The answer to the first question is, it didn't go all the way down until it touched the soil. It would have, I think, if we could have pushed it. I pushed on it as hard as I could and then I kind of pushed on it hard enough to lift my feet off the ground, and it went down that far which was a foot or so. I can't recall, but I did take a picture of it, and you'll be easily - I mean, you'll be able to easily determine how far it went and that was all the force I could put on it. The answer to the second question is, when it started to roll up, it rolled up about a foot and a half and then it didn't want to roll up any more. It wanted to crinkle. It just didn't want to roll. Okay, so, I pulled it down and rolled it up; pulled it down and rolled it up; and about the fifth rollup, that crinkle area tore in a longitudinal crack. It just all of a sudden cracked. And I said, "Oh, oh, things are going to get a little difficult here." So, I stretched it out again; I was pretty tender with it all the time; I wasn't being clumsy about it because I had some experience with these foils under vacuum conditions in the chamber, that they get awful tender, and all the time I was being as careful as I could. So I started to roll it back up again, and it started to tear some more so I realized that time that it was not going to roll up. So, what I did was let it go - let the roller I go and swung around a couple of times end then what I tried to do is take - and I took the roller off the staff and held on the roller and I tried to hold one end - hold the roller and just roll it up, using the sides.

197:13:04 Lind: Apollo 12, we're switching antennas again.

197:14:00 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston. Do you read me?

197:14:34 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston.

197:14:36 Conrad: Go ahead.

197:14:39 Lind: We lost another antenna switchover. Al, you were just saying, you held one end of the roller and were rolling the foil back up when we lost you.

197:14:51 Bean: Okay. Then, I rolled it up the best I could with my fingers on the edge, realizing that I was going to get some lunar dirt in it, but there wasn't any other way to solve the problem. I tried to be clean with it, but I am sure there is going to be some dirt on it. I hope the experimenters can brush the dirt off, bake it off, or do what-ever they - when they take out the molecules. So, maybe they can just dust it off, dust the thing off; and, hopefully, there won't be any rush. Now, when they find it - when I finally took it back to the rock box to put it in the Teflon bag, Pete, we looked at the bag and we looked at the roller; and by my technique of rolling it, the roller was bigger than the bag. So, I took my hands and just crushed the foil on the outside, you know, just squeezed it together and made it big - small enough to fit into the bag we had put in. So that outside layer has a lot of dirt from my hands on it, but inside it, it ought to be relatively clean, particularly on the side nearest the hinge point. Because I tried to never touch there.

197:15:53 Lind: Roger. That sounds good, Al. I'm sure the data is still good on it and they wanted to plan their procedures in the LRL. Listen, that's all the questions we had for you unless there's some other things that come to mind.

197:16:11 Bean: Okay. Let me throw one at you so I don't forget it.

197:16:12 Lind: Okay.

197:16:14 Bean: You know, we had some trouble with those Teflon bags. We had some trouble with those Teflon bags overnight on the lunar surface. They cracked and just didn't act right. Pete reported it, and I'm sure it's documented. I got to thinking maybe that's what happened to that aluminum foil roll. The tape that holds the foil together and everything else; I don't know what it is. But if it's Teflon tape or something like it, maybe that's what is giving us our problem. It just doesn't want to roll up after a certain period of time exposed either to a vacuum or cold or something else. I know it just doesn't work like it does when we are training in the atmosphere with a new roll.

197:16:51 Lind: Roger. Hey, listen, they've just handed me two more questions.

197:16:55 Bean: Hey, one - one...

197:16:56 Lind: Go ahead.

197:16:57 Bean: Let me say one other thing about that that also confirms it. I hadn't thought about it either. Remember when - when the first day, it was just hanging out there like an old window shade. Okay, the second - when we got up the second morning, we looked out there, and I called back and said, "Look, Pete and I both think that this thing has been wrapped around the pole." When I got out there, it hadn't been; but it had taken a definite set. The metal wasn't - the metal wasn't set as it had been before, like a window shade. It sort of had a catty-cornered set in it, not a crease, but sort of a hill running catty-cornered across it at about half the height of the diameter of the staff. So, maybe that aluminium foil under vacuum, or whatever the tape is, takes a set, it just doesn't want to roll up because the set is stronger than the spring tension.

197:17:47 Lind: That certainly could be. Hey, listen, did you take any close-up stereo pictures outside of the disturbed area and, if so, where?

197:18:01 Bean: We took close-up - Oh, I know what you mean. You mean close-ups stereo camera?

197:18:05 Lind: Yes.

197:18:06 Bean: Yes, we did. I took some near - I took some near the engine, as I talked about, then I walked out and took some of the bottom of some little craters that we had not. walked in. Then, I took some of Pete's footsteps, three or four of those. Then, I went out into a couple of areas that we hadn't been and took some photographs. But we were not able, because of the time, to really do as many pictures as we wanted and do as many different things. And that's just - Since that was the last experiment, that was one that's just sort of suffered, and so I - we'll just have to see what we get out of that one. We weren't - I wasn't particularly satisfied with the way it was at the end, but we'll just have to see what happens.

197:18:46 Lind: Roger. Listen, that's all our questions. Let me mention a couple of things that I think you'll find interesting. You were concerned about the dust on the ALSEP experiments. The heat up thermal curves are going just exactly along the predicted lines. So, apparently you guys did just a great job on working in those dusty conditions, because there appear to be no thermal problems or. That thing. I guess you've already heard the - some of the results on the passive seismic, when you sent down the Lunar Module, the whole Mare, or at least that area, vibrated like a plate for some 35 minutes, and the scientists are really delighted in the kind of data that they're getting out of that. They haven't figured out what it means yet, but they're sure interested in the data.

197:19:39 Bean: Say, we've been wondering something up here. Did you happen to figure out why the LM impacted so far from the seismic experiment as it did?

197:19:51 Lind: Yes. We had to turn that off from the ground, and there was a slight overburn in getting the signals up there to turn off the computer, and the slight overburn dropped it in a little further east than we had programed it.

197:20:08 Bean: Okay. We were trying to psych that out up here. Okay, thank you.

197:20:11 Lind: Listen, we have a couple of final scores for you: Michigan, 24, and Ohio State, 12; Missouri, 69, Kansas, 21.

197:20:26 Bean: Sounds good. How about giving our families a call in the next 10 minutes and see what's going on?

197:20:30 Lind: Roger. I tried a few minutes ago and your wives...

197:20:32 Bean: I guess it's time [garble].

197:20:35 Lind: I couldn't catch your wives home a few minutes ago. I'll give them a try again, thanks.

197:20:42 Bean: Okay. Thanks, Don.

197:20:47 Lind: There's a luncheon going on over in your neighborhood someplace.

197:20:53 Bean: Oh, that's right.

197:32:48 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston.

197:32:51 Conrad: Go ahead, Houston.

197:32:53 Lind: Roger. I just talked to your ladies. Pete, Jane said that Christopher got a bike for his birthday; and, within an hour after he got it, it had a small accident. He didn't have any problems, but the bike is a little worse for wear. He's a little disturbed over that. Also, Peter went with the Allen's up to Elkin's Lake deer hunting. They're supposed to be back tomorrow afternoon; so, of course, now, we have no report on his prowess as hunter and she was particularly delighted with the way the flight's going. She says to really congratulate you on a good flight, and they're looking for you back home.

197:33:33 Conrad: Roger. Thank you, Don.

197:33:35 Lind: Dick, talked to Barbara...

197:33:37 Conrad: Dick's not up right now. Why don't you talk to Al?

197:33:40 Lind: Okay. Al, talked to Sue. She...

197:33:43 Conrad: Oh, wait a minute. He's not - Al - Don, Al's not on it either. Wait a second; I got to get him up on the Comm. We're just chlorinating water and doing a few things here.

197:33:52 Lind: Roger.

197:33:56 Conrad: He'll give you call in a minute.

197:33:58 Lind: Fine. [Long pause.]

197:34:40 Bean: Go ahead, Don.

197:34:41 Lind: Roger. Dick, I talked to Barbara.

197:34:47 Bean: No, this is Al.

197:34:49 Lind: Oh, okay. Let's hold off on this. We're about to switch antennas. I'll be back with you in a minute.

197:36:23 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston.

197:36:31 Bean: Go ahead.

197:36:33 Lind: Okay, Al, Sue reports that they had a real nice luncheon. She went to that this afternoon; the kids, of course are home from school, and today's a real nice day here in Houston, so they've been having fun around the house, and the only other thing is that they're really getting anxious for Monday, and get you guys back down here on the Earth.

197:36:56 Bean: Thank you, Don.

197:36:58 Conrad: We feel the same way, believe me.

197:37:00 Lind: Roger. Is Dick around there yet?

197:37:01 Conrad: Yes, Dick's up.

197:37:02 Lind: Okay, Barbara...

197:37:03 Conrad: He's up. Go ahead.

197:37:06 Lind: Roger. Barbara reports Uncle Herb has repaired all the bicycles snd so the kids are really delighted with that. She also reported that the luncheon went off very nicely. Also, Mom and Dad have gone up with Aunt Mary to restock the larders around the house and get all the food they need in the house. Barbara reports the children have been particularly good today, and she is very happy over that, obviously, and they are happy about the flight and really are looking forward to splashdown.

197:37:40 Gordon: Well, sounds like a normal day around the Gordon household. Thank you, Don.

197:37:43 Lind: Roger. Listen, we've got some final ball scores for you: Cornell, 28, over Penn, l4; Penn State over Pittsburg, 27 to 7; Pete, Princeton took Dartmouth, 35 to 7; Purdue, 44, Indiana, 21; Notre Dame took the Air Force, 13 to 6; cad a third quarter score, Tennessee, 2h, and Kentucky, l4.

197:38:17 Conrad: Very good. Let me give you the presleep checklist and crew status report is as follows: CDR had one decongestant, CMP had one, and Al had a sleeping pill last night. That's about that -We've cycled the fans, chlorinated the water. The valves are all at the proper positions. You have got the E-memory dump and the Bat C is 37.0; Pyro Bat A, 37.0; Pyro Bat B is 37.0; and we are on Main A on the dc indicator. And that is about it.

197:39:08 Lind: Very good. Hey, listen. A preliminary report on the antenna test shows that the problem is associated with heating. We want to run another test tomorrow in which we hope to pin down exactly which component of the electronics is experiencing that heating. We will brief you on this in the morning- but it won't involve much for the crew, mostly just orienting the thing and letting it heat up and making couple of switch changes; but this probably means that we may slide the second P23 back about an hour; but we will brief you on that change and what the test consists of first thing in the morning.

197:39:45 Conrad: Okay, and I guess the other question is, do they still plan to do the TV the way we talked about it before the flight?

197:40:02 Lind: Stand by a second.

197:40:06 Conrad: We don't need the answer to it right now. Just between now and tomorrow sometime.

197:40:32 Lind: Pete. The plans are to go ahead as briefed before the flight.

197:40:39 Conrad: Okay. Very good.

197:40:44 Lind: You guys got anything else for us before you go beddy-by.

197:40:50 Conrad: Don't think so.

197:40:52 Lind: Well, have a pleasant night's sleep and we will see you in the morning then.

197:40:55 Conrad: The only thing that's in short supply up here right now is tape recorder batteries. We are on Max conserve on that right now, so we can squeeze the last drop of music out of them.

197:41:07 Bean: Might tell the skipper of that ship to put it right on the center of the target because Dick Gordon is going to be driving it right to that point.

197:41:13 Lind: Very good. Hey, listen, if you run out of tape music, have Pete give you some of that "dum de dum dum" stuff.

197:41:29 Conrad: You mean "ticky poo" and all that jazz?

197:41:32 Lind: That's right. [Long pause.]

197:42:24 Lind: Apollo 12, Houston. The surgeon was wondering if anybody was going to be hooked up on bio harness tonight.

197:42:32 Conrad: We prefer not to. I don't have any on and the other two guys - It is just a pain in the neck getting into the bag with all that big cable hooked up.

197:42:45 Lind: Roger.

197:42:46 Conrad: You don't need it for anything, do you?

197:42:49 Gordon: Let me ask this question. How about letting us all just completely unplug and not even get on the radio? If you want us for anything, use the Crew Alert and we will have the amplifier on the Master Alarm and it works fine. What do you think about that?

197:43:08 Lind: That's fine with us.

197:43:16 Lind: The surgeon will sleep as good as you do with no Biomed to watch.

197:43:21 Conrad: That's great. That's good. He may be wor - interested in the fact that we are taking these decongestants, but this spacecraft is so loaded with dust, I can't believe it. We got to clean the screens about every 2 hours. What we brought back from the LM must have been the world's record for dust, and we have just been having one whale of a time getting this thing clean. I thought it would be cleaned in a matter of 8 to 12 hours, but we have been cleaning screens about 2 or 3 hours apart since we came back from the lunar surface, and we are still getting junk off of them.

197:44:10 Lind: Roger. All the medical types...

197:44:11 Conrad: Much more so than going out.

197:44:16 Lind: The surgeons down here are reviewing their treatment for silicosis so we will be prepared for you.

197:44:28 Conrad: What in heaven's name is that?

197:44:31 Lind: That is a miner's disease from breathing coal dust.

197:44:36 Conrad: There you go. Okay. I am with you.

197:44:39 Lind: Hey, we are going to send up a crew alarm here for you in just a second - a Crew Alert, excuse me, to check out the system.

197:44:49 Conrad: Okay. Wait until we get the power on; we were just rigging the Crew Alarm now.

197:44:55 Lind: Tell us when you are ready.

197:44:56 Conrad: We are ready. [Pause.]

197:45:16 Conrad: It works just fine. Did you hear it?

197:45:18 Lind: Yes. We heard it down here. Fine, already. We'll rest in comfort.

197:45:24 Conrad: Okay. So will we. Nighty-night.

197:45:27 Lind: Nighty night.

197:45:34 Conrad: Hey, Don. Tell Paul Weitz to have a lively night tonight, will you?

197:45:39 Lind: Will do.