If you’re fascinated by the idea of humans traveling through space and curious about how that all works, you’ve come to the right place.

“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center from Houston, Texas, home for NASA’s astronauts and Mission Control Center. Listen to the brightest minds of America’s space agency – astronauts, engineers, scientists and program leaders – discuss exciting topics in engineering, science and technology, sharing their personal stories and expertise on every aspect of human spaceflight. Learn more about how the work being done will help send humans forward to the Moon and on to Mars in the Artemis program.

For Episode 139, James A. Lovell and Fred W. Haise, two of the crew members of Apollo 13, chronicle their days at NASA, their careers, and their fateful mission that began 50 years ago on April 11, 1970. This episode was recorded on January 13, 2020.

Transcript

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 139, “Apollo 13.” I’m Gary Jordan; I’ll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight. On April 13, 1970, roughly 200,000 miles away from Earth, John or “Jack” Swigert, Fred Haise, and James or “Jim” Lovell, the crew members of Apollo 13 had just wrapped up a TV broadcast before turning it in for the night. Nine minutes later, after Swigert flipped one switch for a routine churn of the liquid oxygen tanks, oxygen tank number two exploded, which led to a chain reaction that left the crew in a dire situation. “Houston, we’ve had a problem,” rings over the audio loops.

Capcom: Say again, please?

Apollo 13 (Lovell):Houston, we’ve had a problem.

Host: To set the stage, here’s what Houston and the crew were up against. On the Apollo spacecraft, there were three main areas that ended up playing much different roles after the blast. The service module, the command module, and the lunar module. The service module was stocked with the oxygen, water, and power needed for the mission. However, it also housed the main propulsion and maneuvering systems for the spacecraft. When the oxygen tank exploded, the crew lost these consumables, and the service module was rendered non-functional. The command module was the control center, and served as the crew compartment, accommodating all three astronauts. This module was also designed for re-entry and was equipped with enough power and consumables only for the crew’s descent back into Earth’s atmosphere. However, the command module had to be powered down to avoid depleting its systems. If it hadn’t been, then it would have been impossible for the crew to perform the re-entry operations to return to Earth. The lunar module was designed to make a landing on the Moon, while providing a home base on the lunar surface, and was designed for only two astronauts. However, it ultimately ended up being a lifeboat for all three of them on this mission. It allowed the crew to save the command module supplies for re-entry because it had its own systems for power and consumables. Also, with the service module inoperable, the descent engine on the lunar module was the only way to provide propulsion to perform the maneuvers needed to set up the spacecraft’s trajectory enough so the crew could get home. On top of that, it was extremely cold, drinking water and food were scarce, the condensation began to build up inside the spacecraft. Yet against all these odds, over the course of the next four days, the crew members and the ground support team tirelessly worked together, and Swigert, Haise, and Lovell were safely brought back home on April 17th, 1970. And it was because of the experience gained in rescuing the crew that the Apollo 13 mission was considered a successful failure. It’s after this famous phrase, “Houston, we’ve had a problem,” where in the face of adversity, it was the perseverance, intelligence, and guardianship of the flight controllers and engineers here in Houston, and the bravery of the Apollo 13 crew, that made for a legendary trip back to Earth. It’s after this incredible journey for which this podcast, “Houston We Have a Podcast,” is named. So today, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 13 mission and the human ingenuity and spirit that brought the crew home safe, we sit down with Fred Haise and Jim Lovell. Enjoy.

[ Music ]

Host: Fred and Jim, thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have A Podcast today.

Fred Haise: Glad to be here, glad to be here. Glad to join you.

Host: [laughs] So this April marks the 50th anniversary of Apollo 13, that’s the mission we’re going to be talking about today. That’s an incredible amount of time. Does it feel like 50 years have gone by? Fred, we’ll start with you.

Fred Haise: Well at times it does, but now I’m getting at an age right now I realize a lot of time has gone by. But of course, over the years, Jim and I have got to talk about it a lot. Many, many events over the years.

Host: That’s right. Yeah. And I’m sure that more coming up now with the 50th anniversary. Jim, what about you? Does it feel like 50 years?

Jim Lovell: It does. It’s a long time now since that flight occurred. But I keep thinking about it, and of course, this year, I’ve been getting a lot of telephone calls regarding it.

Host: I’m sure! Have you seen each other, you and Fred, recently? Just through all of the– I guess all of these requests that have been coming down, I’m sure you’re very busy around this time.

Jim Lovell: Yes. I don’t think we have. When was the last time we saw each other, Fred?

Fred Haise: It was at some event. I mean, yes that’s when we normally get together, with ourselves and other comrades as well, for several Apollo– like Apollo 11 events that were recently held, for Apollo 11.

Host: OK. Yes. So, events– yes around some of these anniversaries.

Fred Haise: Exactly.

Host: Gentlemen, you’re both aviators, military men. You– after NASA, you became corporate executives. Taking a snapshot right now, 50 years after Apollo 13, tell me about some of your proudest moments in your career, and just highlights now that we’re 50 years past this mark. Jim, we’ll start with you.

Jim Lovell: Well, of course the proudest moments for me was my tenure in the NASA program, and flying, what, four flights, especially Apollo 8, and then of course the– probability of not coming back on 13 and working carefully with Mission Control to make this a successful failure.

Host: Fred, what about you?

Fred Haise: Well, I think Jim and I were both naval aviators. Now he was a Navy guy, and I was a Marine guy. But other than that, we both wore the wings of gold. No, my NASA career included a couple of backups before 13. I backed up Bill Anders on Apollo 8, which Jim flew. And I backed up Buzz Aldrin on Apollo 11, with Jim. We were the backup crew on that one and flew 13. And then I backed up John Young on 16. With Grumman– with Grumman I started and ended up at Northrop Grumman for 17 years. I guess the two things I’m proud of is two contracts I had, major contracts, were shuttle processing contracts. So, I was involved in turning around space shuttles to go fly again for 12 years.

Host: How about that?

Fred Haise: And the second one was the system engineering integration contract I ran on early Space Station, Freedom. So, it’s the beginnings of the [International Space Station] ISS. It was a different shape and form when we were doing it, but that’s what ended up being ISS.

Host: [laughs] Well, let’s zoom back 50 years to this mission, Apollo 13. I want to start with the launch. Jim, you were no stranger to the Saturn 5, this gigantic rocket launching on Apollo 8 first. Can you tell me about your experience that second time launching for Apollo 13?

Jim Lovell: Well, Saturn 5 was like old hams to me, because of Apollo 8. But it was an old man’s rocket compared to the Titan that we flew on Gemini. It was not hard at all. It was a slow buildup on G loading, and then finally it went to various stages working. And I rather enjoyed it.

Host: Oh really? Fred, now what about you?

Fred Haise: Well, the most unusual thing to me of the G’s or motion was, it was kind of herky-jerky when the engines gimbaled. And the kind of motion, particularly sideways motion you felt was unusual from airplane– and you don’t see it in turbulence or anything. Otherwise, like Jim said, the G’s were fairly modest. I think the peak was four and a half. And we had both flown fighters, even in our older fighters, you could pull 6, 7 G’s, in combat maneuvering. So, you know that wasn’t that big a deal compared to our airplane experience.

Host: Yes. I can see why Jim called it an old man’s rocket. Yes, it was just– it was different. It wasn’t as intense as maybe people think, looking at this gigantic rocket, that makes so much noise. Now after launch, it seems like things are going pretty normal, of course, until it’s time to stir the tank. And then you hear this– hear and feel, this explosion. Fred, can you tell me about your first thoughts when this event occurred?

Fred Haise: Well, I mean we heard the bang, and you know, it rang through this metallic structure. We’re in metal vehicles. And of course, the first thing is, what was it? What was it? And at the time, I got to the– left the lunar module where I was putting away equipment we had out to do a show and tell TV show. I was still putting things away, by the time I drifted up to my position in the right couch, which had a lot of the cryogenics and the fuel cells, and all of that, I looked and saw one oxygen, two oxygen instruments on Tank 2 in the bottoms, both pressure and quantity. And I knew we had lost one oxygen tank, almost for sure, because it’s two different kind of sensors that would feed those dials. And so, I knew we had lost a tank, and I knew we had– that would constitute an abort. So, I was sick to my stomach with disappointment, because I knew pretty quick we had an aborted mission, and we weren’t going to get to land on the Moon.

Host: Jim, did you have the same feeling, the same thought process that led you to “Oh no, we’re going to have to abort and not land on the Moon?”

Jim Lovell: It’s about the same as Fred. I was just going down into the command module when the explosion occurred. I looked up at Fred to see if he knew what caused the noise, and I could tell from his expression that he didn’t know at the time, and then I looked down at Jack, and I noticed that he– his face was such that he was wondering what was going on. And then of course, when I got down into the command module, I saw the warning light was on, and we had lost a fuel cell to begin with. But the conclusion was that I drifted over to the window and looked out the window. I can’t tell you now why I did it, but when I did, I saw escaping at a high rate of speed a gaseous substance from the back of our spacecraft, and it dawned on me that yes, we had lost something. And then I looked at the oxygen gauges, and one read zero, and the other one was going down, so that– you know, it said that everything for us, that this was a real problem.

Host: Were you thinking maybe there’s a way to fix this, and we can land on the Moon? Or did you truly think, yeah, I think we’re going to have to abort this?

Jim Lovell: Well, I knew that this was not going to be landing at this time. And I think even when I saw the gas leaving, I knew that this was going to be a trial, to try to get back to Earth.

Host: Yeah. Now you know, you went through a lot of training on the ground, first, to get to this moment, and Jim, you even had an experience flying to the Moon, so there was a lot of experience just in that mission. But how did the training and what you thought could happen, and training for different scenarios, how did that compare to this actual scenario?

Jim Lovell: Well, as far as I’m concerned, this was all– something entirely new. Done a lot of training, and we had thought about using the lunar module in previous works that we had done, but the situation that put us in was one which was, you know, new to us at the time. And it was new to everybody as a matter of fact. And therefore, we had to figure out what exactly went wrong, what do we have to work with, and fortunately we had communications with mission control, and that’s how the things got started.

Host: Fred, now what was some of the more important, or more useful parts of your training that prepared you to deal with this problem?

Fred Haise: Oh, I don’t think you can say it’s a useful part. All the training was done in what we call simulations, where we were tied to mission control from simulators at Kennedy. And there was actually a group that worked behind the scenes, [Simulation Supervisor] SimSup, that worked very diligently to try to prepare a set of failures that only they knew to trick us, to make us and mission control look bad. So, we went through– I’d been through– Jim too, through several missions before.

Host: Yes.

Fred Haise: With several thousands of hours of this kind of training. So– but this, as Jim said, this was a unique problem. It had not been considered– it had been considered, but if you had an explosion, if you looked at the mean effects analysis on explosions, they’re mainly considered for rocket engines. But nevertheless, the answer was you lose the vehicle and the crew. And so obviously for this condition, there was no Plan B ready. And I think Jack Lousma, capped it– well at one point when things settled a little bit– Jack Lousma was Capcom and he said, “man this is a heck of a sim.”

Host: [laughs] Well, so you mention in the sim, you know, you mentioned they’re trying to trick us. They want– I think they want you to think through some problems. But in the event of a real-life contingency, tell me about the working with the flight controllers to solve the problem together. You know, thinking about what can I solve, and then what can we rely on our smart group of flight controllers and engineers on the ground to help solve, and balancing that?

Jim Lovell: Well of course it was one of cooperation between both mission control and ourselves, but you have to kind of look at the synopsis of this particular flight. If you were superstitious, this was the perfect flight to look at, 13 being the name of the spacecraft. You know, we’d had before the flight, we had the threat of measles. We lost the engine on the second stage of– during the boost phase, and now the explosion occurred. But the explosion occurred at just the right time to make sure that we could– or to get our return safely. If the explosion occurred, and we’d already gotten to the high velocity to go to the Moon, we’d probably have had to go around the Moon to come back home again, and I don’t think the lunar module would have had the electrical capacity to get us home. If the explosion occurred once we were in lunar orbit, or you know, around the lunar surface, well then, we would have been stranded at the Moon.

Host: Yes. Fred, did you have sort of the same thoughts, that this happened at just the right time, or maybe you had some doubts that maybe, oh you know, maybe something else could go wrong?

Fred Haise: No, I didn’t think about the right time or wrong time. To me it was the wrong time to have a problem, but– no that came to me some time later.

Host: Yes.

Fred Haise: Yes.

Host: Now I know, on the ground, there was this– you know, to think about questions to ask you, I did go back, and I watched the movie, “Apollo 13,” fantastic. And I know there was this thought of should we do a direct abort? Should we go right back home? Or should we circle around the Moon, and then there were just a lot of unknowns. And it was all happening on the ground. You were up in Odyssey, and then in Aquarius, just sort of waiting for the direction. Did you have a sense of some of these decisions that were happening on the ground, and considerations? Jim, I’ll start with you.

Jim Lovell: Well, yes, we’d thought of various things what to do with what we had onboard and can do to get home. The first thing that the ground said, and I think they were right, we got to get back on the free-returning course. We had changed our course, because they had thought that it– when we got to the Moon and we started descent, we would probably have the sun overhead, and the Moon surface would be wiped out. And so, we changed our course to another course that we had to get back on that course. So that was the first thing that we had to do, once we powered up the lunar module.

Host: Yeah. Now after this event, you know, you’re working through the problems, and you’re going back around the Moon, because the goal now, the new mission is, we have to return home safely. So, you know, you throw out the old flight plan. Now you’re sort of dealing with this. Was there a lot of waiting, a lot of boredom in-between some of these key phases at this point? And if so, what were you guys talking about? Fred, we’ll start with you.

Fred Haise: Well yes. We had times, like Jim mentioned, we did that maneuver, and we had coasting time to get around to the back side of the Moon, where shortly two hours after that low point around the back side, we did another maneuver. So, there was some– we don’t want to call it relaxed time. It wasn’t very relaxed.

Host: Yeah.

Fred Haise: But we– I don’t recall we talked a lot at the time. As we got to view the Moon, Jack and I had some cameras ready to sightsee and shoot a bunch of pictures. We had several Hasselblad’s rigged to shoot some pictures as we went around the Moon. Turned out we were at a higher point than previous flights. We were 130 miles above the surface, which gave us a larger span of the Moon to shoot. Farouk El-Baz, one of our trainers for lunar geology, in the lunar scene told us afterwards that we shot some very good pictures that had not been shot before. I think he was trying to make us feel good, that we had done something right on this mission. Something that– to contribute something. So, anyway, I don’t recall talking very much about the situation.

Host: Now Jim, do you have a moment during the mission where you could actually take a step back and just realize where you were and appreciate– some moment of awe during your journey around the Moon?

Jim Lovell: Well, yes. I of course, there was no choice but to have to go around the Moon to get back home again. We were glad that the, getting back on the free-returning course was done, because one of our problems in the lunar module was the fact that we had the command service module attached to us. So, the center of gravity of the lunar module was way out in left field, which meant that you know, trying to control the lunar module was a little bit different. It was like driving a car, and you wanted to go right, you had to turn the wheel left. But we finally got through that OK.

Host: Yes. Fred, do you remember seeing the Earth from the Moon at any point, and what were those feelings?

Fred Haise: Well, overall, I guess one of the two surprising or maybe unusual or, as you say awe things about flying in space, it was my first time. One was zero-g, obviously to experience that on a continuum. But it was the scenes out the window, not just around the Moon, but even the Earth, and as it faded away as we left, swiftly. But then looking at the Moon as we went by, and of course seeing the small Earth, which is a very beautiful body in contrast to the Moon. So that– out the window views were just unbelievable at times. I’d look and see, am I really here looking at what I’m looking at? So that kind of thing.

Host: Yes. Now Fred, you mentioned there was a lot of points where you weren’t talking. I’m sure there were moments where you were thinking about other things. Maybe thinking about your family. Jim, do you remember at some points just sort of wondering about your family, how they were doing? Knowing that they were watching you and hoping for a safe return.

Jim Lovell: Oh yes, of course I thought about my family all the time. And I also– you know, thought about just where I am and what I’m doing. But it was one of these things that I think, and people who are trained to be test pilots, and looking at problems as they occurred, that you have to have a positive attitude. You have to look at what you’ve got, and how can you get home. And as long as we could get over one crisis after another, we kept, you know, thinking positive, and until we finally made the landing.

Host: And you had that mindset too, Fred, about just trying to remain positive and stay the course, and think about those next things, those next steps?

Fred Haise: Yes, until it’s over, it’s not over.

Host: Yeah.

Fred Haise: I had one point where I was alone in the lunar module, and went into some compartment, I think I was looking for something to eat, and found pictures of my family that had been placed there. I didn’t, somebody else did. And it made me think. But I was not worried so much about the family because I knew they had lots of support. At every mission, you had other astronauts, other wives. I knew they would be at the home to support the wife. And of course, NASA had a protocol officer that was normally posted there, that would take care of anything the wife wanted taken care of, effectively. Answer the phone, or go get groceries, or whatever. So, I knew the family at least was being supported by others back home.

Host: Did you get a chance to talk to them? When was the next time you actually got to talk to your family after the mission?

Fred Haise: No unlike later– I guess Skylab even– no we had no– we only had the regular air-to-ground to– so we never talked to the families until we got back.

Host: Yes. Can you tell me what some of the– you know, coming back from the mission, talking to the family and thinking about– thinking about your place, after returning, you know, this mission we thought it was going to go one way, but it didn’t. But you returned safely. Can you talk about just the conversations you had with the family and just with some of the flight control teams, now that you are home safe? What was going on there? Jim, we’ll start with you.

Jim Lovell: Well, naturally when we finally got home there was a big sigh of relief. And we met the family in Hawaii I believe, and everybody was happy about that. But then you know, you kind of look back and say you know, my last mission, that’s what I thought it was going to be, was to land on the Moon, and now– that was no longer it. So, there was a little bit of disappointment to it, even though my wife didn’t think there was any disappointment. She got me home, and that was the main thing. But then I realized, I realized over the years, after I look back on this flight, that it was a failure, but it was also a success in the fact that at– by the time Apollo 13 flew, this was the 5th flight to the Moon. People were getting sort of bored by this time. And it suddenly brought back to the populous of the importance of the space program, and what we’re actually doing, and the success we had in the past. And it brought people back to looking at NASA in a more positive mode and following the flights that followed 13.

Host: Fred, did you see sort of that same, similar idea, that there was more attention toward some of the later Apollo missions?

Fred Haise: Well, one of the surprises to me was, when we got back, was to see some of the media, newspapers, because we really didn’t know how this was being taken. Never on the radio was ever discussed how this mission with the problems was being received, was it– or in fact, sort of back of my mind was would this call for the cancelation of the program? Which I certainly didn’t want on my tombstone. But anyway, it was amazing. I mean, it was worldwide attention, worldwide prayers, wishing us well to get back. So, I was just amazed how that was taken. It was not, as Jim said, a successful failure. It was not taken that way at all. It was taken as a great achievement in that we got back safely.

Host: Yes. Now there was a lot you had to endure in that, and a lot of work that went into making that– either you know, calling it a successful failure, or just a mission to celebrate, there was a lot learned from a personal aspect, from a human aspect. Jim, do you recall anything that you learned personally, just as a human being, and what human beings are capable of to deal with problems like this, and to learn from them, and adapt moving on?

Jim Lovell: Well, of course I think of the period that we were there, I really learned that you can’t suddenly have a problem, and then just you know, close your eyes and hope there’s a miracle coming on, because the miracle is something you have to do yourself, or having people to help you. Any kind of a problem that we have. And so, to me, this was a milestone of my life, and we got over it, and of course, I’ve had crisis before, and I’ve had crisis after that. I take everyone very carefully and thoughtfully.

Host: You know, one thing I admire just about the mission itself is just I know– I know there was a lot of elements against you. You know, you had of course, the stirring the oxygen tanks, the explosions, aborting the Moon landing, but just during the flight, I know it was cold. It was– there was a lot of condensation. There wasn’t much drinking water. There was a lot that you just had to endure from a survivability perspective. Can you tell me what was going through your mind, Fred, to push through that, and make sure that you were going to accomplish the mission and return home?

Fred Haise: Well we did, with the conditions, powering down it did get very chilly. I don’t know the exact temperature in the [Lunar Excursion Module] LEM we didn’t have a temperature gauge. It did freeze the water tanks in the mothership, command module. In fact, I was told they found them still frozen when they inspected the capsule after it had been recovered on the aircraft carrier. And it– so we did the best we could. We got out our spare underwear, and so I think I had three sets of underwear on, under my garments. And Jim and I donned our lunar boots. Poor Jack didn’t have a set of lunar boots, so he had to suffer a little more. Plus, he got his feet wet, with the water gun leak. So, we– you know, we did the best we could with the clothing we had, and people ask why didn’t we get in our suits? And the problem was, if you got into your suit without air hoses available to hook up for cooling, you’d perspire. Then you’re worried about getting out of your suit to freeze to death if you had to go to the bathroom. And then we only had one set of hoses available. Because one set was tied up with the lithium cartridge fix. And so only one of us could have worn a suit at any given time. And I think Jim decided we should all suffer equally. So, we did not try to put on spacesuits during that period.

Jim Lovell: Poor Fred got a little sick there on the way with a little infection. So, you know, I had to keep him warm by bundling up around him. You know, I put my arms around him.

Host: [laughter] Yes. That was an important element to getting through all this, right? Was working together as a team. I’m guessing you guys were very close during, and very close after, just the sense of camaraderie to get through that, Jim.

Jim Lovell: That’s right.

Host: Yes. Now here we are, you know, 50 years later talking about this again, and I’m sure you know this is absolutely not the first time you’ve had to sit down and talk to people and tell this story. It’s just a fascinating story. Here we are 50 years later, still talking about it. You’ve gone through so many– there’s books, there’s movies, there’s all the different ways that you can learn about this mission. Is there something, whenever people are telling this story, either through a podcast or movie, something that just cannot be captured, that you think is important to share? Fred, we can start with you.

Fred Haise: Well, one direct aspect was with that cold temperature we were at, operating at a much lower power level, water sublimators which are there to capture moisture, like every time you’re breathing out, you’re breathing out moisture, was not able to do its job. We were well below its specifications, and water built up everywhere. We could see it in the LEM, looking through a netting wall. We couldn’t afford a real wall in the LEM for weight. You could see water globules on every turn of a connector, or two-beam, and that connector interfaces is sort of shimmering there with a little vibration from the glycol pump. And when we got into the command module to power it up, we had to get towels out to wipe off the instrument panel. It was covered with water. So, a real concern was thinking about electric shorts. Well, what saved us from that, it’s one of the things of accidents and tragedies is you can learn from them, that’s what had happened with the Apollo 1 fire that killed the crew on the launch pad. We did a significant redesign of the command module, some structural things like the hatch. But also, a very rigid rewiring. It was specification. So, sealing that connector interfaces, which is done not just on the command module, but also the lunar modules. And so anyway, that fix that was made out of that accident, and that’s since waterproofed, all of that. So, we did not suffer, probably would have suffered maybe an electric short with that water buildup everywhere. So that really effectively, the results out of an accident board in finding helped save us on 13 as well.

Host: Yes. The lessons from that. Jim, anything that you find that has not been captured that’s worth sharing?

Jim Lovell: Well, yes. Of course, one of the things that occurred was the fact that we had of course used the lunar module as a life boat to get home. And that means there was three people in that lunar module for four days, and the lunar module was designed for two people for two days. And consequently, the carbon dioxide was building up because they only provided enough things to remove the carbon dioxide for two people. And so, it was getting oversaturated. The container was. And so, we had to figure out a jury-rig, and this was really the initiative on part of the Mission Control and Crew Systems Division, use the canisters in the command module, which were 1/4-inch square to fit into a facility that usually took round canisters, or oblong canisters, and this was done. And they, at mission control, they figured out how to do it. They sent up the orders to us, and the three of us put the thing together, and by God, it worked. And so, it was a perfect example of team work, and thinking sort of outside the box. But also slowing down and not trying to rush things. And we got rid of the carbon dioxide to safely get home, otherwise that would have been the end of us.

Host: Yes. Fred you talked about learning from Apollo 1, and some of the lessons learned from that redesigned the capsule that ultimately led to something that helped you survive Apollo 13. I’m sure you, thinking about what Jim was just mentioning, some of these lessons learned on Apollo 13, carbon dioxide buildup, jerry-rigging something, using existing materials. Some of these lessons from Apollo 13 needed to be carried to future missions. Do you see some of that? Did– do you see some of that implemented? Some of the lessons learned on Apollo 13 going forward?

Fred Haise: Well, it’s probably more than I can think of, but certainly the fuel cells, the next-generation fuel cells were made so they were restartable, the ones on space shuttle. Our fuel cells, Jim mentioned this. One of the first things he noticed, the fuel cells– we had lost fuel cells. That was because the reactor valves had gotten closed by the G-shock of the explosion. And they– and that immediately killed those fuel cells, and they were not restartable on Apollo. So, there was a different I guess specification put on the ones for space shuttle, that could be restarted. Simple things, like I’m sure later missions, I know Apollo 14 started, had some blank paper. We had no blank paper. Which was a problem for writing some of these different varieties of procedures. So that– also mods were made on Apollo 14 to add one limb descent battery. And they also added a set of cryogenic tanks on the opposite side of the spacecraft, from the side where they were all clustered on our service module. So, you know, some things like that were, call it lessons learned that were applied downstream.

Host: Yes. Jim, did you see the same things, some of these lessons from Apollo 13 going forward, and just impacting future human spaceflight?

Jim Lovell: Oh yes. Just as Fred said, they– fortunately they learned from mistakes and that was it. And of course, one of the things they had to do which was the cause of the accident, was back in, I think it was 1965, the spacecraft builder I had said to the people that were building these liquid oxygen tanks, to replace the thermostats in the liquid oxygen tanks from 28-volt to 40-volt, because they thought that perhaps sometime one of these spacecraft in those final stages prior to launch, and they’re out at the launch site, there was available 65-volt power, and if something happened, they would like to use that ground power, rather than set up those fuel cells for ship’s power. So, they wanted those thermostats changed. But unfortunately, that directive was never followed, and the 28-volt thermostats were in the fuel cells at the time– or in the oxygen tanks, and that was really one of the items that caused the explosion eventually.

Host: Yes. Now you’re both– you know, definitely technically-minded. I see a lot of technical lessons learned, but I know even after NASA, just going through this, you both had careers in the private sector, executives. I know Fred, you were at Grumman, and Jim a number of other companies in a leadership position, in a management position. Were there values, were there lessons from Apollo 13, or from your tenure at NASA that you carried into that private sector, and into your management style and way of carrying yourself and working with teams? Fred, we’ll start with you.

Fred Haise: Well, I think if you say “leadership,” for me probably the founding basis for me was the military. My military experience as a Marine Corps, and two different Marine fighter squadrons. And I think it was being part of a military organization that kind of got you set in the right direction for both following orders and giving orders in the right way to be a leader. And so, you know, that was kind of the foundation, I would say.

Host: So, it was those military experiences that you carried into NASA, and then carried forward from there.

Fred Haise: Yes.

Host: Yes. And Jim, were you the same way?

Jim Lovell: Yes. Basically, the same way. Of course, the military is a great place to learn leadership.

Host: Yes.

Jim Lovell: And even leadership after we got into NASA, you know and basically to– to the Apollo, to look at it very carefully to determine the solution. Just don’t jump into things, and then also you know, be comfortable to the crew if something goes on. And that’s what happened on all the flights that I was on. Certainly 13 was — we all knew what to do, and we all did it.

Host: Now you know, Apollo 13, I believe lasted six days, but you know, again, here we are 50 years later, talking about it. Can you tell me how it shaped, just the way– the rest of your life? Maybe through family. Maybe through– because it captured the hearts and minds of so many people, your willingness to share this story. I mean you’re both here with me today, and I very much appreciate it. Fred, we’ll start with you. How did those six days shape the next 50 years?

Fred Haise: I don’t really think it changed much for me. I did not– I guess I looked at flying into space as just an adjunct of my aviation and test piloting career. It was not a religious-type experience. For me it was just another great adventure. And I had no I’ll call it change in mindset about things, particularly following that flight. Of course, the notoriety of that, and being an astronaut obviously helped in some ways with my career. Probably gave me the start I had at Grumman, for instance. But you know, other than that, that was a benefit, certainly.

Host: Yes.

Fred Haise: But that’s about it.

Host: Now Jim, did you have something similar, or maybe something different?

Jim Lovell: Well, very similar. Similar in the fact that I never worried about problems, you know? After we got through Apollo 13, I figured that any other problem coming along were going to be, you know, survivable, and so I just didn’t, didn’t have a real worry about following things. And I went through, you know, various different businesses. And I ended up doing quite a bit of speaking, which brought back old memories of the flight that Fred and I were on.

Host: Yes. Now 50 years later, what we’re talking about now is this Artemis generation. We’re talking about returning to the Moon, but we’re talking about staying. What are some of the values from, you know, working at NASA, working during the Apollo program, that you think are important to pass onto this Artemis generation, to the future generation? Fred, we’ll start with you.

Fred Haise: Well, I’ll have to say what I know about Artemis and the program in any detail is only what I get from the media.

Host: Oh sure.

Fred Haise: As I– I really am just interested in there being a continuation of exploration. And there’s been a lot of arguments about whether go back to the Moon or go to Mars. But I’m happy that there’ll be some sustenance in tackling it this way. Little– I think they’re going at it a little different way. More launches required than– we had one launch to do it. I think there are several launches involved in Artemis, in the plans. But otherwise that’s what– just I hope it continues and rejuvenates people that are working here at NASA at the various sites that are supporting it to make it all happen. And have the continued support through Congress and the administration.

Host: What about exploration is so valuable?

Fred Haise: Well, I think it’s valuable certainly from things that we learn just from Earth observations. There’s that part of it as well. Learning about our Earth and protecting it, and knowing about things here, but otherwise, very, very long-term, there’s obviously a concern about the survivability of the human race. We’ve had major extinctions on Earth. Hopefully none very soon again, but there’s something to be said that we should use some part of this talent we’re blessed with. Because we humans are uniquely able to go outward and to explore that. So far at least, no other critters have showed up that think they could do that.

Host: Yes.

Fred Haise: So, it’s kind of a blessing that we have, and the ability we’ve been given by the creator that we should maybe use our talent in that direction.

Host: Now Jim, your thoughts about this next– this future of exploration.

Jim Lovell: Well, I think the future of exploration has a lot to do with the makeup of the people that are growing up, again the children. I have met a lot of people, you know, in their 40s and 50s now that said, look it, I followed the program when I was just a kid, and that sort of got me into engineering, or into something else like that. And so, the space program was essentially an incentive to a lot of people who liked what we were doing in space as they were children, and then followed their dreams to do something else. Not so much go into NASA or anything like that, but actually accomplishing something because of what we accomplished.

Host: Yes. Do you think that’s important? To make sure there’s this sense of inspiration, either through, you know, space exploration, or other avenues? That sense of inspiring, you know, STEM fields, and people to go into more technical careers?

Jim Lovell: That’s right. I think the space program has incentive to a lot of people to get into technical businesses, engineering, or something of this nature. And outside from the physical, you know, introduction of new science and new engineering, and new things that we deal with now every day. You know, the communications, and the computer technology, and things of this nature.

Host: Yes. Fred, what inspired you to do something more technical, you flying aircraft, what inspired you to pursue that career?

Fred Haise: The Korean War.

Host: Oh yes.

Fred Haise: Yes. I was actually– first two years of college, I was going to be a journalist.

Host: Oh!

Fred Haise: And was majoring in journalism. And the Korean War had come along, and I decided to serve my country, and the program I went into was a naval aviation cadet program. And became a pilot. So that caused a 90-degree turn, because I love flying, and I said that’s now my career. Somehow, it’s going to be in aviation.

Host: [laughter] Now Jim, what was your inspiration to pursue that path?

Jim Lovell: Well, just about the same thing. Of course, the wars– I’ve got to do the naval aviation when I graduated from the Naval Academy. And then was, you know, it was squadrons in between the wars, and then just before the– I guess it was Vietnam at that time, that I got into the space program.

Host: Yes. I’m sure you both return to NASA occasionally, every once in a while. What do you see when you return here? How things have shaped over 50 years? Fred, we’ll start with you.

Fred Haise: Well, I’m here really not any more– as a visitor I’d say at JSC. I’m not involved, have not been involved technically, except of some of the contracts I had when I was at Northrop Grumman, which is not since 1996 now. But anyway, I obviously come here to the campus, and of course, I see a lot of these added security features. That’s happened everywhere I guess.

Host: Sure.

Fred Haise: The government installations since 9/11. But otherwise, I come to support the summer of aerospace scholar groups. I’ve been here to talk to teacher groups that meet here, and events over at Space Center Houston through the year, since I live here in Houston. It’s convenient, and I’ve supported still supported NASA in that way, more in the education area.

Host: Jim, what about you?

Jim Lovell: Well, I you know– JSC has always been the place where I, you know, had all my experiences and everything. As a matter of fact, we were going to have a 50th anniversary of Apollo 13 there at JSC, but it happened to be on the Saturday between Good Friday and Easter, and Krantz decided that wasn’t the thing to do. So, then I can’t go down to the new time, and so Fred-o, you’re going to have to take over for me if you’re going to go to that. [Laughter]

Fred Haise: Alright.

Host: Yes. No, we are at the 50th anniversary. I’m sure you’re getting a lot of these requests to come and talk about it. Thinking about this anniversary, the golden anniversary of Apollo 13, what do you think is the legacy of Apollo 13? Jim, we’ll start with you.

Jim Lovell: Well, the legacy is that essentially don’t give up. Or essentially look at a problem in all aspects to try to solve it. Thirteen was a classic example of that. But through all of life, and throughout in people, there’s a probable time that are similar to what we had on 13. And you must, you know, have a positive attitude.

Host: Your thoughts, Fred?

Fred Haise: I think it’s simply the slogan if you will, that’s come out and is used in a lot of ways I see these days, that came out in the movie about Apollo 13. And that was, failure is not an option.

Host: Yes. [laughter] That is true. I love that. Gentlemen, any final thoughts before we part ways? Now thinking about– now that we’ve been talking about Apollo 13, that we’re approaching this 50th anniversary, any final thoughts? Jim, I’ll pass it over to you first.

Jim Lovell: No, I think that– that I’d like to see the program continue as long as it provides positive results to help our country and help the world. I enjoyed my tenure in the space program. And I hope that other people do the same.

Host: Wonderful. Now, Fred?

Fred Haise: I don’t think I have anything to add to what Jim said. I just hope the program, it will be continued to be supported. And we can move forward and be at the Moon first. Let’s go do the Moon.

Host: [laughter] Well, gentlemen, it has been such an honor and a privilege to talk to you today on the 50th anniversary of Apollo 13. Just really appreciate your time, and I wish you the best of luck in these next couple months, as everyone else is going to be asking for your time as well, and for the future. Thank you so much, gentlemen.

Jim Lovell: Well, thank you for the call.

Fred Haise: Alright. Thank you.

[ Music ]

Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Fred Haise and Jim Lovell, 50 years after their historic mission. If you liked this podcast, we got a lot of others that go into the history of the Apollo program, here on Houston We Have A Podcast. You can find us at NASA.gov/podcasts. And the many other podcasts we have across the agency. If you want to talk to us, we’re on social media. We’re on the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Use the hashtag #AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show, just make sure to mention it’s for Houston We Have A Podcast. This episode was recorded on February 27th, 2020. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Norah Moran, Belinda Pulido, Kelly Humphries, Stephanie Castillo, and to Jennifer Hernandez for preparing questions. Thanks again to Fred Haise and Jim Lovell for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on and tell us how we did. We’ll be back next week.